Help Explaining the ICM Trainer Software

    • Valsomething
      Joined: 12.08.2010 Posts: 20
      I have recently downloaded the ICM trainer and need some help in explaining its logic.

      The questions I seem to be getting most consistantly wrong is when to push or fold A rags and what cards to push/fold from the SB. One particular puzzling one was being told to fold an all in from the BU with ATo in the SB (less chips then BU) whilst it says I should have called an all in from the CO from the SB with A9o (less chips than CO). I am confused.

      The one pattern that seems to arise is to push from the CO or BU position with any A suited or any Ao rags when have more chips than BU, SB or BB. But other than that, I don't understand the logic.

      The other is what cards consititues a push from the SB to the BB. One situation said the correct call with a 83o was to push. In 2 similar situations, it said I should have folded 42s and yet in another to push with 64s.

      Could someone please help me understand the logic of when to push at the SB and what to do with Ao rags - at least according to the ICM trainer.

      Thanks in advance.
  • 5 replies
    • darkonebg
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508

      Will move it to the SnG forum, that way you can get a reply from the specialists :)
    • repescov
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 164
      I'm not an ICM expert, but I noticed that you are looking only if you have more or less chips than the opponent. This is a mistake, it plays a important role, because in the independent chip model the more chips you have, the less value they hold.

      But you should also consider how many big blinds you have, the blinds and antes in pot and the prize distribution.

      A common mistake is that people in blinds call pushes over 10BB with any A which usually is dominated preflop. When I was learning ICM 3 years ago, when I didn't understand I used detailed math calculations to understand.

      If you don't understand an ICM situation - throw it here and I'm sure there will be people who will explain in detail.
    • randombob
      Joined: 18.05.2014 Posts: 174
      I was in a similar situation when I started looking into ICM a while back, I found it was best to just plow on through the trainer just saying what you would normally do then go back afterwards and look at the ones you got wrong and try and spot patterns

      I found
      Look at chip stacks in turns of BB
      Are there antes?
      If youve got the big stack or short stack shove wider
      On the bubble A rag isnt great for calling a shove even SB vs BB
    • Ramble
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,460
      The key things that I think are missing from your examples are how many players remain and the relative stacks of all players.

      The fewer players that remain, the higher the "ICM Tax" is since you are closer to finishing ITM.

      So in your "ATo fold" vs "A9o call" situations where you were SB and out-stacked in both spots, you need to consider what happens if you call AND the BB calls, what if you fold and the BB calls. How do these actions affect your position in the game?

      Let's say it is 4-handed, and 3-positions get paid. 3 stacks each have about 12 bb's and 1 stack only has 2 bb's left. Put yourself in each position and think about the dynamics here as a pusher or a potential caller, either as last to act or with people left to act after you...

      ICM is more than push/fold one-on-one, it is what the whole table dynamics could be after the hand is over and how that affects your likelihood of taking home some/most of the prize-pool.
    • AdamLaw33
      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 17
      it's funny ur name is Ramble. ;)