Is it profitable calling 3-bets with pairs?

    • MickyCee93
      MickyCee93
      Basic
      Joined: 03.08.2014 Posts: 37
      So lets say you raise and then you get 3-bet 3 times your raise. Is it profitable to call in a hope of hitting a set?

      I mean you can make a a lot if you spike a set against someone with AA or KK.

      I usually just fold unless it's min 3 bet or a few others join the pot. Just wondering if its profitable in the long run?
  • 9 replies
    • AlvisR
      AlvisR
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2009 Posts: 656
      No.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      maybe
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Hi, MickyCee93,
      Unfortunately, the question doesn't have enough information to give a full answer.

      Which pairs?
      What are the player's stats?
      What positions are the two players in?
      What are the relative stack sizes? (Call 20 rule etc)

      The strategy article "How to play before the flop" has a section on this called "What if someone raises after you".

      I recommend reading the entire article, but here is the paragraph in question:
      There is, as we just said, one exception. When you have a pocket pair smaller than AA or KK, you can make an exception and call a raise, as long as both you and your opponent have stacks at least 20x the amount you're about to call.

      Just like when you follow the Call 20 rule from the Starting Hands Chart, you are speculating on hitting three-of-a-kind on the flop. If you do hit, chances are good that you'll be able to win your opponent's entire stack.


      The Call 20 rule is explained in the article cited.

      The other side of the coin is: If you do NOT hit, you fold on the flop.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      depends on how wide their 3bet stats are in if you are oop or ip
    • MickyCee93
      MickyCee93
      Basic
      Joined: 03.08.2014 Posts: 37
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Hi, MickyCee93,
      Unfortunately, the question doesn't have enough information to give a full answer.

      Which pairs?
      What are the player's stats?
      What positions are the two players in?
      What are the relative stack sizes? (Call 20 rule etc)

      The strategy article "How to play before the flop" has a section on this called "What if someone raises after you".

      I recommend reading the entire article, but here is the paragraph in question:
      There is, as we just said, one exception. When you have a pocket pair smaller than AA or KK, you can make an exception and call a raise, as long as both you and your opponent have stacks at least 20x the amount you're about to call.

      Just like when you follow the Call 20 rule from the Starting Hands Chart, you are speculating on hitting three-of-a-kind on the flop. If you do hit, chances are good that you'll be able to win your opponent's entire stack.


      The Call 20 rule is explained in the article cited.

      The other side of the coin is: If you do NOT hit, you fold on the flop.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
      thank you I will have a read.
    • lapulga01
      lapulga01
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 557
      What? Why fold on the flop. A lot of pairs are playable on the flop, specially if villain 3bets a good amount of times and you are in position.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Originally posted by lapulga01
      What? Why fold on the flop. A lot of pairs are playable on the flop, specially if villain 3bets a good amount of times and you are in position.
      Yes, quite true.

      However we don't know which pairs he is talking about here, and we don't know what the flop is, nor the stack sizes, nor the players tendencies etc, etc.

      Way too much information missing to answer the original question in absolute terms.

      However, just for fun, check your tracker to see what your bb/100 is in three-bet pots when you hold a pair. You may include 22-AA

      Now do the same for 22-TT

      --VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      OK, here are my numbers.
      It ain't pretty.

      Overall 22-AA when I raised preflop, and called a 3Bet.
      I did not filter for any other criteria.
      My total database only includes about 300K hands
      Winrate 152 bb/100 (14,134 hands) total
      Winrate -194 bb/100 (696 hands) playing raise/call
      Winrate 752 bb/100 (1185 hands) when I was the 3bettor.

      Taking only those hands 22-TT
      -30 bb/100 (9798 hands) total
      -875 bb/100 (452 hands) playing raise/call
      183 bb/100 (271 hands) when I actually did the 3-Betting


      So, on the face of it, calling 3Bets w/ small PP is not worth it in the long run.

      These results are a bit skewed, but I pretty much don't call 3Bets on the button from the blinds w/ 66 or less. If I did, I'm sure the results above would be quite a bit worse.

      The above came about because some time back, I realized that with small PP, you pretty much have to fold on way too many flops.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • MickyCee93
      MickyCee93
      Basic
      Joined: 03.08.2014 Posts: 37
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      OK, here are my numbers.
      It ain't pretty.

      Overall 22-AA when I raised preflop, and called a 3Bet.
      I did not filter for any other criteria.
      My total database only includes about 300K hands
      Winrate 152 bb/100 (14,134 hands) total
      Winrate -194 bb/100 (696 hands) playing raise/call
      Winrate 752 bb/100 (1185 hands) when I was the 3bettor.

      Taking only those hands 22-TT
      -30 bb/100 (9798 hands) total
      -875 bb/100 (452 hands) playing raise/call
      183 bb/100 (271 hands) when I actually did the 3-Betting


      So, on the face of it, calling 3Bets w/ small PP is not worth it in the long run.

      These results are a bit skewed, but I pretty much don't call 3Bets on the button from the blinds w/ 66 or less. If I did, I'm sure the results above would be quite a bit worse.

      The above came about because some time back, I realized that with small PP, you pretty much have to fold on way too many flops.

      Cheers,
      --VS
      Brilliant stuff. Pretty interesting. By the way by pocket pairs I meant 22-JJ. I usually fold these pairs in most situations to 3-bets (Unless it's a min 3-bet or if another person decides to call a 3-bet I consider calling)