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ICM calculators & different results

    • randombob
      Joined: 18.05.2014 Posts: 174
      I have tried the following programs so far
      Hold em resources
      ICM trainer from poker strategy
      Sng Wiz

      But seem to be getting two very different sets of results

      SB: 1,138 (3.8 bb)
      Hero (BB): 2,863 (9.5 bb)
      MP: 1,718 (5.7 bb)
      CO: 4,736 (15.8 bb)
      BTN: 3,045 (10.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 8
      2 folds, BTN raises to 3,045 and is all-in,

      Afterwards I checked with HoldEmResources and this is what it said
      BU 43.3%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q4s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 75s+ 65s 54s
      BB 8%, 88+ ATs+ ATo+

      ICM trainer was very similar
      BU 44.5%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 98o 85s+ 75s+ 64s+ 54s
      BB 8.3%, 88+ A9s+ ATo+

      Firstly I doubt many people at this level are shoving 45s there let alone J6s & T6s, so I thought that range cant be correct, so I tried ICMizer and that said
      BU 16% 44+, A3s+, A8o, KTs, KQo, QTs+, JTs
      BB 3.8% TT+, AQs, AKo

      SnG Wiz was very similar to ICMizer
      BU 16.9% 33+, A3s+, A7o, KTs, KQo,
      BB 3.8% TT+, AKo , AQs

      Why do the programs give such different ranges?
  • 4 replies
    • Qicmizer
      Joined: 17.09.2011 Posts: 780
      ICM calculators are calculators, so they require users to plug in some input, to get some reasonable output.

      So for your example in ICMIZER I am not sure where you got that 16% range in the first place.

      If you use assign ranges according to Nash equilibrium you will get:

      BTN: 43%:22+,A2+,K2s+,K6o+,Q4s+,Q9o+,J5s+,J9o+,T6s+,T9o,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s
      BB call: (8.3%) 88+,A9s+,ATo+

      Wizard doesn't have Nash equilibrium feature so you can't really compare it with other programs in your list. However if you input a range for BTN manually you will get similar call ranges among all programs for this rather easy spot.
    • randombob
      Joined: 18.05.2014 Posts: 174
      This is the reply I got back from holdem resources
      "The web calculator displays Nash ranges. Sng Wiz uses a much more simplistic approach to calculate their default ranges, so its results will naturally differ a lot.

      ICMizer on the other hand also has a Nash option, and it should have very similar results apart from some hand selection details. "

      so then I looked at ICMizer and

      If I click calculate in the example above it says the BTN is shoving 16%, but if I click calculate nash equilibrium it says 43%, so very similar to holdem resources. But I very much doubt people at my levels 5-20$ are shoving that wide, well I know for a fact that they aren’t!!

      On the BTN 43% seems much more reasonable than 16, but I seriously doubt people are shoving those low suited cards

      At least I now know what caused the differences, thanks!!
    • Qicmizer
      Joined: 17.09.2011 Posts: 780
      Well, if you doubt, then you are probably right cause your doubt is basd on real game experience not some theoretical Nash range.

      So if you assume that they actually push 30% in this case, not 43 and not 16, simply assign the pushing range to 30% ( I am talking from ICMIZER perspective cause I am developer of ICMIZER) and look what kind of calling range you will have on BB.

      In this case the calling range is already very tight VS 43% range, but against tighter range it will be even more tight.

      The goal of Nash ranges is to provide some theoretical starting spot for ranges. Then you apply your ingame experince and edit the ranges, so you can get results which will be realistic and accurate for your game.

      For example at higher stakes players generally push closer to Nash equilbirium than on lower stakes. So if you assume that low stakes players are playing like high stake players and follow nash, you will be making a big and expensive mistakes in almost every hand.

      If on the other hand you edit the ranges so they correspond to your opponents better, you will get different results and they will be more profitable at your level.
    • randombob
      Joined: 18.05.2014 Posts: 174
      I'm glad this happened because I have now seen what hands can theoretically be pushed according to NASH, but I'm sure this isnt true for my levels so now I just need to take it all into account when I next play, simple!!! :D

      Thanks for helping to clear this up