Coach telling some one what to do in a live game

    • larsonk7
      larsonk7
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2012 Posts: 137
      Within the coaching section, one of the coaches offers to watch some one while playing a FT, to tell them what to do in order to achieve the best result.

      He would then take a % of the win.

      He is specifically saying he will tell players how to play their hands.

      Imo, this is deeply unethical and is cheating the other players on the Final Table. They are not playing against the player but the "coach".

      To be fair he says it's against the T and C's on stars to do this, but any site I play on a 3rd party in not allowed to influence the decisions of a player.

      This is explicitly giving a player an unfair advantage against the other players at the final table.

      I'm surprised this part of his staking offer is still up and that pokerstrategy have not removed this.

      In my opinion this part of the OP's "coaching" offering should be removed.

      Would be interested to hear others views on this?

      Do you think it's acceptable while playing on a FT that you could be playing against 2 players as opposed to 1?
  • 35 replies
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Hi larsonk7,

      Personally, I don't really think that there is anything wrong with that.
      Players who take this coaching offer don't primarily do so because they want the coach to make all the decisions for them. They do so because they want to learn something, and they want to be able to make the same profitable decisions on their own in the future.

      In the end, it doesn't really matter if you're playing against the coach himself or against a "normal" player who is assisted by a coach, so I don't think it's a huge problem that everyone else is technically up against two players at once.

      That's my personal opinion, anyway.
    • larsonk7
      larsonk7
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2012 Posts: 137
      Ok cool Harrier.

      I would just say if it was about the future and being more profitable on a FT, icm considerations, then paying x amount for a review of the FT after the event would be far more productive, with no ambiguity about the morality of telling some one to play during a live game.
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      I must admit when I read this I was a little shocked that a PS mod said he thought it was ok to do this, but if you look at it this way, most of us have live sweat sessions with friends and sometimes 3/4 players giving advice, so in a bubble, if we have these sweat sessions and follow instructions from fellow players I can only say it has to be ok.
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      It is wrong and unethical in my view, i would love to ban everyone who does that, especially ps coach, just because he should know better not to advertise it, don't know who you are talking about, but it changes nothing.

      Harrier, so if you think it is all about the teaching for coach, why there is no fixed $/h rate, as his decisions wont change if that is 2$ mtt or 200$, so for that reason its all about money so i consider it as cheating, and i agree with larsonk7 if you want to learn, most productive way would be doing review, not a live session.

      Shane, i think there is big difference between doing sweat session with your buds that are around your skill level and doing it with professional coach, it just creates huge advantage for the guy with a coach. For example, would you better play HU vs be/ slightly winning player or top pro?

      This topic overall have been widely discussed on 2+2, sadly we cant report players about this topic, so sites are doing it themselves, i have heard only about stars doing their work of banning these guys, and yeah there is a way how they can find out. But i have to say it is a great schema for a coach, as he cant get banned so he can only win money if they dont get caught, and it takes balls to offer such a services publicly, on site like ps.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      It seems like the majority of our members really does consider this kind of coaching offer to be unethical.

      I will forward this thread and your opinions to the higher-ups for consideration.

      In the meantime, feel free to keep the discussion going. We will keep your comments in mind.
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      Obviously we can't make them not to do this kind of stuff, and it is up for players to decide if they want to do such thing or not, but i believe that we all want to make poker fair to everyone, at least most of us.

      Asaban in his coaching thread said that it is widely used among other coaches and it is a common "teaching" method therefor it is okey for him to offer this kind of services. So if i see a group of guys robbing a bank, so should i go and help them and take my piece? Just because others do it it doesn't mean you should do it too.

      I hope that we could get them at least take down these offers publicly, what they do privately its up to them.
    • larsonk7
      larsonk7
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2012 Posts: 137
      Agree with RUFUS

      I'm sure in the Coach's OP he didn't look on it as cheating.

      But for a site like PS don't feel this should be condoned implicitly by allowing such an offer to stay on the site.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      i believe this practice is called 'ghosting'. it's basicly account sharing and imo it's definitely highly immoral and describing it as coaching is deceptive. if you need ft advice whats wrong with recording your session or at the very least using a delay/only receiving advice after a decision is made.

      i agree that the percentage of winnings payment system sounds very shady and makes it seem - a lot - like pure profiteering.

      having said all that, we should probably give whoever offered this the benefit of the doubt for now as long as they rescind or adjust the offer.
    • TheMarxBros3
      TheMarxBros3
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2008 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by Harrier88
      Hi larsonk7,

      Personally, I don't really think that there is anything wrong with that.
      Players who take this coaching offer don't primarily do so because they want the coach to make all the decisions for them. They do so because they want to learn something, and they want to be able to make the same profitable decisions on their own in the future.

      In the end, it doesn't really matter if you're playing against the coach himself or against a "normal" player who is assisted by a coach, so I don't think it's a huge problem that everyone else is technically up against two players at once.

      That's my personal opinion, anyway.
      You aren't kidding are you!
      I have been playing poker all my life (I'm 60) and that is about the most unethical thing you can do as a player.
      It is no different then what Shawn Deeb did on pokerstars awhile back.
      He started playing a tournament in England. Had his sister play for him while he was flying across the ocean and once he landed he took over the play and won the tournament.
      Guess what happened? Pokerstars forfeited his win and moved everyone up one spot.
      Having more then one player play a hand either live or on-line is cheating and for pokerstrategy to condone such play brings the ethics of this site into question.
      I will wait for a clarification before deciding if this site is worth staying a member of!!!!!!!!
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by TheMarxBros3
      It is no different then what Shawn Deeb did on pokerstars awhile back.
      i believe stars say it's ok to let someone take over in certain circumstances, a power cut for example, while you travel to an available pc to retake control. don't quote me! it's a while since i read the TOS.

      shawn was probably pushing that a bit too far, he could have caught a later flight.
    • Johnis
      Johnis
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 77
      To be honest, I'm very surprized that this type of activity is called coaching. Would I call it cheating ? Probably. Is it against the rules? I'm not sure.

      But the way everything is done is clear - coach is playing the final table :) You can go even further than this and give him remote access to your pc, so you don't even need to do anything - just watch the moneys coming in.

      I don't know what else to add - it's just one more way to exploit your opponents... Everyone is trying to get that little bit extra edge.
    • AlcopopDK
      AlcopopDK
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.03.2009 Posts: 172
      I think its gr8 with some debate about this topic - But there's just no way it can be discussed wether or not its OK to ghost someone at a final table!! This is clearly against T&Cs and against any poker etiquette!

      @Larson I think you need to out the coach in question by linking to the thread with the offer, and by quoting the offer into this thread (I even think its appropriate to out the coach to Pokerstars aswell)

      @Pokerstrategy If ghosting is really offered by a coach i can't imagine how you're gonna handle this without sacking the coach in question

      /AlcopopDK
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,244
      Hey guys,

      It can often be a fine line between unethical and illegal. I have requested clarification from Management but unfortunately it's 3am in Gibraltar so we have to wait a little while for an answer.

      Stay cool

      Laz
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      Asabans thread in question Private Coaching with Asaban (MTT/MTSNG)

      And there are also official ps statement ~1 year ago about this Announcement regarding live play Private Coachings

      In theory he haven't broke any rules as he is not offering it to pokerstars mtts stating that in coaching offer, but you can get this option on other sites as it isn't forbidden, so in his eyes its allowed.

      And i agree it's fine line, i would imagine if some student offered him a piece in sunday millon or some other big tournament FT on stars, he would prob take that offer, dont see why he would refused that offer as he clearly dont see anything wrong in this type of "coaching".
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,244
      Ty Rufus. :)
    • TheMarxBros3
      TheMarxBros3
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2008 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by Rufus433
      Asabans thread in question Private Coaching with Asaban (MTT/MTSNG)

      And there are also official ps statement ~1 year ago about this Announcement regarding live play Private Coachings

      In theory he haven't broke any rules as he is not offering it to pokerstars mtts stating that in coaching offer, but you can get this option on other sites as it isn't forbidden, so in his eyes its allowed.

      And i agree it's fine line, i would imagine if some student offered him a piece in sunday millon or some other big tournament FT on stars, he would prob take that offer, dont see why he would refused that offer as he clearly dont see anything wrong in this type of "coaching".
      Funny isn't it how pokerstars is the only site that treats cheating as cheating.
      Gee I wonder why they are the leader on on-line poker.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      It can often be a fine line between unethical and illegal.
      who really cares if it is illegal? the more relevant questions for management are; is this unethical? and (if yes) will ps allow unethical behaviour?

      i do think that if this offer is deemed unethical sacking the coach is probably too extreme. we all make mistakes.
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      Originally posted by Rufus433
      It is wrong and unethical in my view, i would love to ban everyone who does that, especially ps coach, just because he should know better not to advertise it, don't know who you are talking about, but it changes nothing.

      Harrier, so if you think it is all about the teaching for coach, why there is no fixed $/h rate, as his decisions wont change if that is 2$ mtt or 200$, so for that reason its all about money so i consider it as cheating, and i agree with larsonk7 if you want to learn, most productive way would be doing review, not a live session.

      Shane, i think there is big difference between doing sweat session with your buds that are around your skill level and doing it with professional coach, it just creates huge advantage for the guy with a coach. For example, would you better play HU vs be/ slightly winning player or top pro?

      This topic overall have been widely discussed on 2+2, sadly we cant report players about this topic, so sites are doing it themselves, i have heard only about stars doing their work of banning these guys, and yeah there is a way how they can find out. But i have to say it is a great schema for a coach, as he cant get banned so he can only win money if they dont get caught, and it takes balls to offer such a services publicly, on site like ps.
      I agree with your comment rufus, but in my eyes it is the same thing, as for buds being of the same level that's rather here no there, its giving advice on the current situation, and I,am sure all of us have done this in sweat sessions, but yes I totally agree it us unethical for a payed coach to give advice, its a very fine line.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by TheMarxBros3
      Funny isn't it how pokerstars is the only site that treats cheating as cheating.
      Gee I wonder why they are the leader on on-line poker.
      it's easier to ignore it because it's so difficult to enforce.
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