Quiz time - Flop BTN v BB

    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Hero opens BTN 2bb, SB folds, BB calls.

      BB is a nemesis reg.

      Flop: T:s8:s5

      Hero has 2 hands and has decided he must bet one and check behind with the other.
      Which hand do you choose to bet with and which to check behind? Why?

      The hands are
      A:h8 and 7:h8


      I'll give anyone who would like a few days to respond, then I'll put my answer up. Bonus points for listing pros and cons of each.
  • 15 replies
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      Hi,

      check A8, bet 78

      A8 needs less protection, it is very good if villian still has Ax combos. 78 needs protection because there are so many combos which have nice equity, and would fold vs bet on flop.

      78s can be turned into bluff on turn, if J, 9, 6 comes, so basically we can continue barreling on 6, 7, 8, 9, J, and can cc if board pairs.

      How many points, some rakeback, or reward?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      bet A8 check 78

      A8 has more value, betting 78 isolates oneself against a stronger range

      We don't need to turn 78 into a bluff, and in a way i think it's better than A8 on a bunch of coordinating cards on the Turn.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Yeah thanks guys, you can both have some internet points! :pokerface:

      The risk of checking behind is bad cards coming on the turn and allowing his x/f range to improve. Obviously there are more bad cards for 78s than A8s. The risk of betting the weaker hand is it gets less value or value towns itself sometimes and beats less hands in villains range.

      Comparing the two
      - I gave BB two ranges, a wide range (WR) and a tighter range (TR). Because both kinds of ranges are fairly common and thought it would be interesting to see if they differ too much.

      How do the hands do against BB's entire range that sees the flop?

      A8s is the best hand 78% (65% equity) of the time against BB's TR entire range that sees the flop.
      78s is the best hand 71% (59% equity) of the time against BB's TR entire range that sees the flop.

      A8s is the best hand 82% (67% equity) of the time against BB's WR entire range that sees the flop.
      78s is the best hand 75% (61% equity) of the time against BB's WR entire range that sees the flop.

      How do the hands do against BB's x/f range?

      BB TR
      A8s against BB TR x/f range has 82.3% equity
      78s against BB TR x/r range has 80.4% equity

      BB WR
      A8s against BB WR x/f range has 84.6% equity
      7s8s against BB WR x/f range has 82.6% equity

      How do the hands do against BB's x/c range?

      A8s is the best hand 65% (51.7% equity) of the time against BB's TR x/c range.
      78s is the best hand 51% (44.3% equity) of the time against BB's TR x/c range.

      A8s is the best hand 68% (52% equity) of the time against BB's WR x/c range.
      78s is the best hand 48% (40% equity) of the time against BB's WR x/c range.

      From this I think we can take away.
      - There is a pretty decent difference in the value we get against villain's x/c range from between betting A8s and 78s. Between 25%-40% depending on how wide BB is calling.
      - The vulnerability of x/c hands against villain's x/f range isn't really that bad. With the difference between A8s and 78s only ~2%.

      So I think this shows a good argument that A8 is the better bet.


      I also did 22.
      How does 22 do against BB's entire range that sees the flop?

      22 is the best hand 54.3% (37.5% equity) of the time against BB's TR entire range that sees the flop.
      22 is the best hand 57.6% (40% equity) of the time against BB's WR entire range that sees the flop.

      How does 22 do against BB's x/f range?

      BB TR
      22 against BB TR x/f range has 56.1% equity, best hand 77%
      22 against BB WR x/f range has 58.4% equity, best hand 80.7%

      How does 22 do against BB's x/c range?

      22 is the best hand 37.2% (26.5% equity) of the time against BB's TR x/c range.
      22 is the best hand 35% (23.7% equity) of the time against BB's WR x/c range.

      So I think with 22 an argument can be made for betting (for a bluff/protection/value or whatever u want to call it), because it's equity is so vulnerable to villains x/f range.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      Good explanation, thanks. Some more questions? If you dont post more, then it doesnt have anything to do with Quiz Time :)

      Yeah, my argument that A8 needs less protection than 78s is wrong, since villian calls many of his Ax hands. But if it would be tigther ranges, then imo A8 is better to check back and 78 to barrel.
    • ACi0coiu
      ACi0coiu
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2010 Posts: 3,517
      Bet A8 and check 78.

      A8 stands vs a x/r and a calling range, because we keep more bluff/semi-bluffs in villains range (7x type hands).

      78 blocks many of villain semi-bluffs combos (much more then Ax FDs), so when we get x/r or a call, we have less equity, because we stand vs a more value-ish range. And bet/folding with TPLK throws away our equity.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      Originally posted by ACi0coiu
      Bet A8 and check 78.

      A8 stands vs a x/r and a calling range, because we keep more bluff/semi-bluffs in villains range (7x type hands).
      Is it good or bad for our EV if he has more semi bluff combos that will raise? I would say it is good to block any raise combo, because we really dont like to face raise with both hands, and it would be poor bluff catcher. So i would say for that aspect 78s is better to bet because it will face less often raise than A8, and when 78 get raised it has redraw
    • ACi0coiu
      ACi0coiu
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2010 Posts: 3,517
      Ok, but by betting with 78 you also block some hands from his calling range, much more that with A8. What i'm trying to say is that if actions stops on flop, both hands have the same value. But by betting, we also influence his callingrange, not only his x/r range.

      But after flop, I think we better have A8 in our betting range on turn+, because villains range will have more drawy hands.

      After flop play, if the actions continue and we bet with 78, villains range will have more value hands, and we basically have to shut down.

      But honestly, I consider your reply also valid. Maybe it's not that much a question of GTO, but of villain tendencies?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      A8 will block Ax hands that are weaker and call us, and there are many more those combos than 7x :)
      Anyway, i think it is pointless to make a decision influenced by how many combos blocks our hand on flop, because even vs known villian it is impossible to say it, and vs "gto" villian it is even more pointless because we dont have a clue how he plays each combo.

      Sure i also prefer to have A8 on turn after getting called simply because it has more equity, but i also prefer to have it in check range for the same reason. I think we should base our decision mainly on which hand needs more protection (which is 87) and is one reason to bet, and other perspective is if we can bet flop and cc turn which both hands fullfill. Both hands will be played as weak bluff catcher on turn after betting flop. Both hands play bad vs raise 78 plays a bit better because of backfoor which supports again 78s to bet.

      I would prefer to bet both if i could because both need much protection
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Nice discussion! This kind of flop is always interesting to analyse...

      One point about the 22 hand analysis. Saying we could bet because its equity is so vulnerable against villain's check folding is like saying we should bet for protection. And (at least for me) it doesn't make sense to protect our hand when it is not even favourite against opponent's entire range. For me we need to have at least 50% equity to bet for protection (protection as I understand is means "bluffing with the best hand"). Does it make sense what I say?

      And another interesting discussion would be about what hands work best as "slowplays" in case we need to protect our check behind range (for example, against aggressive opponents. I guess that against passive opponents there is no need to protect our checking range).
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      One point about the 22 hand analysis. Saying we could bet because its equity is so vulnerable against villain's check folding is like saying we should bet for protection. And (at least for me) it doesn't make sense to protect our hand when it is not even favourite against opponent's entire range
      It is not all about equity. Imo, equity should be only used on flop if it has extreme value. E.g. if we have 95% equity we have a clear value bet. If we have 5% equity, we have clear c/f. If our equity is 30%-65% I would say it shouldnt be much considered in decision making. Playability of hand (equity retaining) and possibility to hit nuts should be mostly considered on flop.
      E.g. 22 has good equity as you said e.g. 50%, but playability is poor as we have only 2 outs to improve, and more importantly each villian hand has >= 28% equity to improve. e.g. AK as overcards has less equity than 22, but it has much better playability, because it can improve to strong hand.

      Another important thing imo is, that hand shouldnt be bet as protection, if we are not able to check/call most of the turns, or value bet again (meaning we mostly c/f turn). If we would mostly c/f turn, it means that our hand (like 22) achives the same as pure bluff having little equity.
      So for this board, e.g. A8, 78, 56s can be bet for protection and c/c on turn which is ok and it has still 5 outs to improve. Hand like 66, 77 is bad for bet flop c/c turn as it has only 2 outs to improve.
      Thats why I would mostly check with small PP, and bet with pairs having 5 outs. Checking small PP also forces villian to bluff us when we check flop, if he wants to win the showdown, which means he can less comfortable play Ax hands check down on flop.



      And another interesting discussion would be about what hands work best as "slowplays" in case we need to protect our check behind range (for example, against aggressive opponents. I guess that against passive opponents there is no need to protect our checking range).
      I would usually put in check range hands that dont need protection but dont have 3 streets value. On high boards it would be weak top pairs that call 3 streets and 3 top set combos, and 2 streets call 2nd pairs and some Ax fd, one street call Ax, some GS.

      If the board is low, I would c/r more frequently to reduce his positional advantage (as there are so many overcards), I would cbet hands that need protection and have 3 streets value, like on this board Tx, JJ-KK, and I would check/raise all AA without bdfd, and c/c down all AA with bdfd (can safely call almost any runout). I would c/c more than on high boards of Ax, Kx fd and nut bdfd (because I dont have to bluff them, and villian can continue bluffing when I hit, also it beats bluffs), and would c/c weak Tx that cant bet 3 streets value.
      So this way I would protect my range.
    • RakeVictim
      RakeVictim
      Basic
      Joined: 27.03.2014 Posts: 199
      bet both imo, lazy to explain why tho :D

      If we MUST bet one and check other, bet A8. We bet both for value, so it's pretty close which one we should bet.
    • MaxLange
      MaxLange
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2014 Posts: 195
      I would check behind A8 and bet 78, one of the reasons is that if he has Ax type of hands he might catch an A where we would win a lot of money, I bet 78 because I want to get rid of Ax hands as well.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553
      Originally posted by MaxLange
      I would check behind A8 and bet 78, one of the reasons is that if he has Ax type of hands he might catch an A where we would win a lot of money, I bet 78 because I want to get rid of Ax hands as well.
      copy paste my answer :) just kidding
    • MaxLange
      MaxLange
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2014 Posts: 195
      I readed your answer and my answer is like 90% similiar to yours but that's how I think the hand should be played. :)
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,553

      I would check behind A8 and bet 78, one of the reasons is that if he has Ax type of hands he might catch an A where we would win a lot of money
      The chance that he has Ax is not great, then even if he has it A comes 2/45 times, so I think that is not that important thing, but it is positive. The more important thing is that the hand needs less protection because you dont have to worry about A on turn or river. And yes, with 78 I also want to get read of Ax which al have >28% equity vs our hand (folding 28% equity is really great).