Gameplan versus regs not folding enough to 3bets

    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Hi!

      I have a "problem". Most regs in my metagame don't fold enough to 3bets in order for me to justify 3bet blluffing (except when they are in the bU: 3bet bluffing vs bu is very profitable). They are folding around 45% and even realizing 100% equity of my bluffs, it is not profitable to 3bet bluff given their fold, call and 4bet% (I got this from one of Uri peleg's videos)

      To readjust my plan I think I have 3 options:

      1) Only 3bet my value range and fold my 3bet/fold range. Problem: my 3bet% will go down a lot and will be "transparent" and my total defending range gets tighter.

      2)I widen my value range. That's good becasue my 3bet% won't go down so much but the problem is that some hands will be very thin value bets. It might be better to call those hands preflop and play a wider range than 3betting for value. Another problem: my calling range gets weaker

      3)Cold call my entire range preflop. I might loose some value from my top range and I might get in some trouble spots multiway, but I get more value from squeezes and having my top range will allow me to raise more cbets, etc.

      Which option do you prefer and why?

      thanks!
  • 12 replies
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      Hi!

      I have a "problem". Most regs in my metagame don't fold enough to 3bets in order for me to justify 3bet blluffing (except when they are in the bU: 3bet bluffing vs bu is very profitable). They are folding around 45% and even realizing 100% equity of my bluffs, it is not profitable to 3bet bluff given their fold, call and 4bet% (I got this from one of Uri peleg's videos)

      To readjust my plan I think I have 3 options:

      1) Only 3bet my value range and fold my 3bet/fold range. Problem: my 3bet% will go down a lot and will be "transparent" and my total defending range gets tighter.

      2)I widen my value range. That's good becasue my 3bet% won't go down so much but the problem is that some hands will be very thin value bets. It might be better to call those hands preflop and play a wider range than 3betting for value. Another problem: my calling range gets weaker

      3)Cold call my entire range preflop. I might loose some value from my top range and I might get in some trouble spots multiway, but I get more value from squeezes and having my top range will allow me to raise more cbets, etc.

      Which option do you prefer and why?

      thanks!
      extend your value range obv and keep 3bet bluffing with a much lower freq. cold calling your entire range preflop cannot be profitable no matter what oop, only 3betting top of your range will result in practically the same leak. so basically we just 3bet wider for value and take some wierd lines postflop, I like to miss cbet/raise most gutshots, bdfd+overs etc ... on certain textures (obv balance it with some overpairs+) because vilain is going to be mostly flopping weak pairs, backdoors etc ... it depends on vilain's postflop tendancies of course.
      so as a general game plan I would widen my preflop value range and put pressure postflop accordingly. hope that makes sense :) )
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      Actually, given that your 3-betting range is well crafted and balanced to begin with, it is not you that have problems. It is them because you are about to exploit them. How you do just that you can figure out yourself, essentially less bluffs, more value - also keep in mind that if they call, they have a weaker range postflop as well and have to fold more later in the hand.

      It lies in the nature of exploitation that when you exploit, then you become exploitable yourself. There is no way around this. So, yes, it will affect your stats in the long term, but why worry about that now? If and when they adjust, simply readjust.
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Platinum
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 481
      45% fold to 3bet is perfect imo for all positions expect SB. And your 3bet range should be designed for such stat. It is very easy to exploit those who overfold.
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by dooleslovs
      45% fold to 3bet is perfect imo for all positions expect SB. And your 3bet range should be designed for such stat. It is very easy to exploit those who overfold.
      yeah just noticed this, 45% ft3b is totally standard these days I think, on the lower side but definatly standard, I run 35/28/12 and my fold to 3b is 44.


      I have a "problem". Most regs in my metagame don't fold enough to 3bets in order for me to justify 3bet blluffing (except when they are in the bU: 3bet bluffing vs bu is very profitable). They are folding around 45% and even realizing 100% equity of my bluffs, it is not profitable to 3bet bluff given their fold, call and 4bet% (I got this from one of Uri peleg's videos)


      it's more like, if they fold more than 50%, they are folding too much.
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      45% foldto3bet is standard nowadays, yes. But then 3betting bluffs (with around 35% equity) is not profitable (at least for me!!!). In fact, my winrates when 3bet bluffing are very bad except when I 3bet versus BU. And that's my "problem".

      So yess, I suppose I could widen my 3bet for value range planing to call some 4bets as well.

      Thanks!!!
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      45% foldto3bet is standard nowadays, yes. But then 3betting bluffs (with around 35% equity) is not profitable (at least for me!!!). In fact, my winrates when 3bet bluffing are very bad except when I 3bet versus BU. And that's my "problem".

      So yess, I suppose I could widen my 3bet for value range planing to call some 4bets as well.

      Thanks!!!
      winrate when you 3b bluff is bad like how? you should take into consideration that as long as your lossrate from the bb is <-100b/100 you're actually printing monies for example. another thing to consider is that even if 3b bluffing isn't very profitable (or slightly losing) you must keep doing it for balance and to preserve an aggro image preflop etc ...
      and calling 4bets/5b bluffing is another complicated matter :)
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Yes, I know that :) and I took it into consideration.

      I will reduce my bluffing frequency to something like 30% and I will expand my value range and see how it goes.

      Thanks againg
    • HuhtalaJ
      HuhtalaJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 7,166
      Very good point from Yohann that if you want to exploit something, you will become exploitable in some way as well and it's all about adjusting and readjusting.

      If you don't play heads-up (or perhaps 3-handed either), note that you can show outside the same 3bet percentage by hugely exploiting overfolders and those who don't fold. If you 3bet the overfolders big time and only the nuts against those who don't fold much, you can keep your average and the number in other regs' huds "standard". It takes a while to notice this but if you overdo it, it will be noticed at some point.

      You can also tinker with your sizing. It's better to call more against a smaller sizing and less against bigger so you can test how your opponents react to different 3bet sizes. Also note that when the sizings are bigger, it might be easier for you to shove over a 4bet.

      Just some food for thought :)
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by HuhtalaJ
      Very good point from Yohann that if you want to exploit something, you will become exploitable in some way as well and it's all about adjusting and readjusting.

      If you don't play heads-up (or perhaps 3-handed either), note that you can show outside the same 3bet percentage by hugely exploiting overfolders and those who don't fold. If you 3bet the overfolders big time and only the nuts against those who don't fold much, you can keep your average and the number in other regs' huds "standard". It takes a while to notice this but if you overdo it, it will be noticed at some point.

      You can also tinker with your sizing. It's better to call more against a smaller sizing and less against bigger so you can test how your opponents react to different 3bet sizes. Also note that when the sizings are bigger, it might be easier for you to shove over a 4bet.

      Just some food for thought :)
      So it looks like you prefer option 1 (3bet only with your strong value range), right? Interesting thoughts...
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      extending your value range may not necessarily be good, 3betting AQ vs UTG 15% open may be overplay still.

      You could use better hands to bluff with (middle suited connectors and aces which would typically call) as opposed to suited/offsuit trash
    • HuhtalaJ
      HuhtalaJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 7,166
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      So it looks like you prefer option 1 (3bet only with your strong value range), right? Interesting thoughts...
      As long as I can get away with it, yes.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Imo the only reason why we should ever bluff in any situation is if it is +EV. So we dont bluff just to balance ranges. Since you say your bluffs are -EV then imo there is no sense to donate money to opponents because of the balancing. If middle SC and aces are going to be +EV as mbml are they really bluffs? I guess we can call them semi bluffs. I mean do you play them +EV because it is value hand vs reg who is having wide range, or because reg folds on any street too much?
      Also if villian notices that you 3bet only value and suited broadways or middle suited hands
      as "bluffs" is he going to think that you are actually not bluffing him at all and will stop defending speculative hands?