6max sng's

  • 20 replies
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi Backcushion,

      The NL SH chart is designed for 100 BB's. As you know, most of the time we dont have many big blinds.

      As a starting basis I suppose you could use the SnG FR chart, but miss the early positions out. This will often be to tight though.

      When playing FR SnG's on the low limits, 3-4 people often bust within 10-15 minutes. So imo, SH SnG's are just a waste of time. Most coaches will also tell you to play FR instead. You wont find much info on how to play 6 max SnG's on the net, and what you do find is often garbage anyway. As imo, the top players stear clear of them.

      Regards,
      Stiev
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      verry little regulars, verry little "grinders", loaaaads of fish :)

      i get a fairly decent ROI on those 6max tournaments, cant play more then 8 at the same time though; where i can play 12+ 10seaters.

      6max has a different dynamic and different payout structure. the 70/30 payout structure will translate your advantage headsup in cold hard cash :)
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      That's great. I want as many people as possible to recommend not to play 6max sng's.

      viewer88, how about the starting hands? I'm a little blurry here.

      In a 9max sng it costs you 0.15BB/hand when you play. In a 6max it costs you 0.25 which is almost double. But problem is when you play looser your hands loose value exponentially, and generally 6max fish just love calling.

      Can they be played after 9man starting hands?

      In the early stage you don't want to get involved with weak hands anyway and there's no urge to steal the blinds and i guess the starting hands charts for the middle stage were made assuming you aren't still playing 9handed (some players get eliminated so you should be 6-7handed at least anyway).
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Risk aversion is lower in a 6-max SNG, particularly if you play on a site with a 70-30 structure instead of 65-35 or 60-40. (Note that when you get 3-handed with a 50-30-20 structure, the money not yet awarded is split 30-10-0, so it is as though you are on the bubble of a 75-25 6-max tournament.) So, survival is less important than in a 50-30-20 structure, and the play is closer to a cash game than in a 50-30-20 tournament.

      The stacks tend to be a little deeper, which leads to more postflop play, and you are constantly in blind-stealing and defense situations. If you are comfortable playing postflop and playing 6-max cash games, you may enjoy 6-handed SNGs, and you may find them quite profitable.

      I think the tight-early approach, while not ideal in any situation, is less effective in 6-max games than 9-max. Blinds are always worth stealing, and this is an important part of shorthanded play.

      It is not the increased average cost of the blinds per hand which says that you should loosen up. It is that you are much more frequently in late position. You do not need to play much differently when it is folded to you on the button regardless of whether it is 9-handed or 6-handed.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      By default i raise in the early phase from any position AJs+ 99+, and 88 and KQ from MP3.

      From late position i get close to 9max starting hands chart. I ocasionally steal a little looser (let's say from SB with A5o) when my opponents are particulary tight.

      I tend to raise a limp at 10/20 or 15/30 level for isolation, with hands like AJ.

      Good general strategy?

      Also i have doubts with low-blind steals. For example Moshman says you have KT on BU blinds are 10/20 go for a raise (not exactly, but somewhere in that manner), while the articles say to let it go. Which one to do?

      Also, he says raise suited aces from BU in the middle stage. Again, good idea?
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      Also i have doubts with low-blind steals. For example Moshman says you have KT on BU blinds are 10/20 go for a raise (not exactly, but somewhere in that manner), while the articles say to let it go. Which one to do?

      Also, he says raise suited aces from BU in the middle stage. Again, good idea?
      In general, if you are going to play those KT or suited aces hands from button you should raise when it comes as unopened to you.

      Raising KT from button with 10/20 blinds is not really about stealing. You have decent hand and best possible position. So raise should be done more as value raise than steal.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I found this quite helpful. I think its rather harder to multitable six handed SnGs though, and that this is their main disadvantage.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151

      Also i have doubts with low-blind steals. For example Moshman says you have KT on BU blinds are 10/20 go for a raise (not exactly, but somewhere in that manner), while the articles say to let it go. Which one to do?

      Also, he says raise suited aces from BU in the middle stage. Again, good idea?
      Beginners should play a tight range. More advanced players should loosen up.

      When you play a wider range, you get yourself into tougher situations. As you develop more postflop skills, you should be able to profit from these situations. In fact, you can raise even wider than Moshman recommends there. I open about 60% on the button when the blinds are low, and the marginal hands are still showing a clear profit.

      If the blinds are tight regulars, then you may be able to profitably raise with any two cards. You will simply show an immediate profit when you do, because a lot of players are not interested in defending their blinds, and they will throw away hands like A8o even if you have been raising every button.

      If the blinds are looser casual players, then they will defend too often for you to raise with trash like J3o. However, you should be able to show a clear profit with hands like KTo combined with your positional advantage. Players who defend the blinds with a wide range may deny you an immediate profit preflop, but they give up a lot postflop since they rarely make a strong hand. The result is that it is usually more profitable to steal against players who overdefend than against the tight regs who rarely defend.

      Here is another quote from Moshman: "It's never too big of a mistake to open on the button."
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Thanks a lot for the reply. Since the more you learn the more you feel you have to learn more here's some more: (i hope you don't feel i'm stretching my luck here)

      What do you do with small pocket pairs?

      The logical way would be to raise any pocket pair any position since in SH cash games you do and in the middle phase you need the blinds. But it feels somehow streched.

      How loose do you call on the bubble?

      I've trained with ICM trainer and there are some really loose bubble calls there. Like K2o loose. Full confidence in setting it to 6max PartyPoker setup and 0% Hero Edge?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by andreibalint
      What do you do with small pocket pairs?

      The logical way would be to raise any pocket pair any position since in SH cash games you do and in the middle phase you need the blinds. But it feels somehow streched.
      I think low pocker pairs are overrated by many players even in cash games. They are more playable in cash games because of the rare chance that you will flop a set and will win a 100 bb stack. When the stacks are 50 bb, you should be aiming more for hands which make big pairs or big draws, and low pocket pairs just don't hit often enough when you only hope to get paid off 30-50 bb. I raise every pocket pair on the button in SNGs, but even what I do with 22 in the CO depends on the situation, and I usually fold it in BTN+3 = UTG 6-handed.


      How loose do you call on the bubble?

      I've trained with ICM trainer and there are some really loose bubble calls there. Like K2o loose. Full confidence in setting it to 6max PartyPoker setup and 0% Hero Edge?
      Many of your opponents are simply not pushing as widely as the Nash pushing ranges. In those situations, you may have to tighten up from the Nash calling ranges.

      Example: In one heads-up situation, the Nash pushing range is about 60%, and I found that players at one level had a VPIP of about 60% from the small blind. However, they pushed 40% and limped 20%. While a few of the limps were traps, the 40% pushes were definitely at the top end. This meant that the correct calling range against an unknown player at this level was not the Nash 40% calling range, but about 25%.

      Many regulars will push wider than the Nash pushing range from the small blind. Some will push ATC. If they are pushing wider than the Nash pushing range, then you can call wider than the Nash calling range. Try not to make calls which would be wrong against a 100% range, though.

      It's still good to learn the Nash equilibrium using ICM Trainer. However, in addition, I recommend using my program ICM Explorer to determine how much equity you need against the pusher's range, combined with PokerStrategy's Equilator.
    • edi9999
      edi9999
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2008 Posts: 1,387
      Is somebody interested to speak on skype about the SNG 6max.

      I play actually 5$ SH SNG on Full tilt .

      My skype address is edi99922
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      I now have another problem with 6max sng's. Players are way to loose. I play stars 13$ turbos. There's almost no such thing as bubble abuse since your average fish has absolutely no problem with raise-calling with KTo or A8o.

      I see a lot of limp/call all in with Ax and low pocket pairs. Have you seen the same patterns?

      I still play as ICM Trainer 0% edge suggests (except maybe HU where i'm a little tighter at calling an all in). The results are horrible. After 1.6k games i lose money with just about anything except pocket pairs, A5+,KT+,QT+ (horrible downswing included but still...)

      So the actual question is do i keep playing my standard equilibrium game or start to use SNG Wizard to figure out some tighter ranges? Do i keep restealing and attacking limpers with whatever decent hand or use the standard rebound chart on them?

      For example i have 10bb on the SB. One 40/10 and one 30/20 limp before me. This looks like clear all in to me with just about any pocket pair (ocasionally folding 22-55) A7+ (somewhere around there), KTs+, KJo+.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Bad opponents should not be avoided. They are necessary to make the game profitable at all, and if you have found a concentration of bad players, then you should learn to beat them for a much higher ROI than you can get against better players. In the past, players were much looser and much worse than they are now, and that is why experts used to be able to get ROIs over 30%.

      You should be careful that if you are too tight, then you might think people are playing badly when they make correct plays with hands you would have folded, and some loose players are indeed making bad plays, but not nearly as bad as you believe. The bubble in a 65-35 6-max tournament is less pronounced than the bubble in a 50-30-20 tournament. With 3 equal stacks in a shorthanded tournament, the risk premium is often about 11%, compared with 15% for 4 equal stacks in a 9-handed tournament. This means it is correct to call much wider, and to induce action much more often in 6-player tournaments than in 9-player SNGs.

      For example, with 4 equal stacks on the bubble of a 50-30-20 tournament, the Nash pushing range is 100% or close, depending on the blinds, and the big blind might only be able to call with 10% of hands. With 3 equal 10 bb stacks on the bubble of a 65-35 tournament, the Nash pushing range is about 80% and the big blind can call with about 20%, including some ugly hands like A4s and KTo.

      If your opponents make occasional, unpredictable spite calls, then keep pushing. Only adjust when you have a read that your opponents are calling widely on average, not when you fear a crazy call. Remember that you are the beneficiary of spite calls when your opponents collide while you have folded, and the amount you gain from those times is generally greater than the amount you lose from spite calls against you.

      Make sure you are not playing too tightly in early levels. You should be taking the chips of the players who are too loose, and the right way to do that is NOT to tighten up. Bad players, particularly those who limp in with mediocre hands, are sources of chips, and you should look for more reasons to play pots with them rather than waiting for them to give their chips to someone else.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Thanks a lot. Where can i find some risk premiums/bubble factors for some common 6max situations and stacks? Or better yet where can i simulate whatever i want?

      I tried ICM Explorer (wow, congrats on writing it) and from what i figured out it works only for the standard 50-30-20 payout structure.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I might make a video later about risk premiums in various situations, although since more people play 50-30-20 tournaments, the focus will be on that structure.

      The registered version of ICM Explorer handles other prize structures and lets you launch a web page with the Nash calculator.
    • bunjow
      bunjow
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.01.2010 Posts: 12
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I found this quite helpful. I think its rather harder to multitable six handed SnGs though, and that this is their main disadvantage.
      Um, the strategy taught there seems suspect at best. The author of that training website posted example screenshots of himself playing at BlueSquare poker as "floppingmad" and at Titan as "flopmaestro".

      Sharkscope him! He's a losing player trying to make money from pokersite sign-up affiliate programs or website advertising is my guess.

      Soo disappointing...
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by bunjow
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I found this quite helpful. I think its rather harder to multitable six handed SnGs though, and that this is their main disadvantage.
      Um, the strategy taught there seems suspect at best. The author of that training website posted example screenshots of himself playing at BlueSquare poker as "floppingmad" and at Titan as "flopmaestro".

      Sharkscope him! He's a losing player trying to make money from pokersite sign-up affiliate programs or website advertising is my guess.

      Soo disappointing...
      I think I'd now have to agree.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by bunjow
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I found this quite helpful. I think its rather harder to multitable six handed SnGs though, and that this is their main disadvantage.
      Um, the strategy taught there seems suspect at best. The author of that training website posted example screenshots of himself playing at BlueSquare poker as "floppingmad" and at Titan as "flopmaestro".

      Sharkscope him! He's a losing player trying to make money from pokersite sign-up affiliate programs or website advertising is my guess.

      Soo disappointing...
      I have spent some time on this site too, and spoke to the guy lots of times, and watched him play, I think a lot of his advice is very good and have seen him play very well, he told me his achillees heel is when he has had a few too many drinks!!lol
      Not that my sharkscope is much better!!!lol :P
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      I would really appreciate if Pzhon gives us a staring hand chart for 6max sng.I would also like to know how we adjust our preflop calling range in early stages.Say we face an uknown raising utg and we are sitting in the blinds -what is our general calling range here?.I guess we never open limp in 6max.If we wanna play a hand-we go for a raise.What pairs do we raise utg than?Do we fold 22-66?We can limp behind w some pairs or other spec. hands trying to hit big in multiway pot.These are just thoughts.I think Pzhon gave us some really good general ideas about 6max.There is less risk aversion in deed,which I find a good thing.Althought u can't multitable as much as if u play 9 max,you can still put a greater volume playing 6 max cuz they are just much faster.U raise more hands in late possition cuz blind stealing is always worth it.
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