Is poker beatable without a HUD?

  • Poll
    • Is poker beatable above micro stakes without a HUD?

      • 33
        Yes
        79%
      • 9
        No
        21%
      Total: 42 Votes
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      I was just wondering what peoples opinions were about playing poker in todays landscape with HUDS?

      1) Is poker beatable without a hud knowadays?

      2) Is using HUDs actually a way of cheating by gaining unfair stats on people we wouldn't usually have at a live poker game?

      3) Would using computerized programmes at a live game be acceptable to track peoples stats?

      4) If there is enough interest in this discussion I would deffinatly like to get involved in some point a test to see if todays games could be beat without huds.

      Thx shane
  • 20 replies
    • Skodljivec
      Skodljivec
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2011 Posts: 5,709
      Hi,

      1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample

      2) It's not cheating because online you play far more tables than live, and people can change very fast. So the HUD is an advantange you have online, but live you would have the advantage to play for a few hours with the same people, and you would be able to make mental notes on how they play etc... That's impossible to do online when you play with even 100 people at the sam time

      3) No idea

      4) Again, it probably depends on stakes. I'm fairly confident for example i could beat plo25 w/o hud fairly easily. PLO50 it's already close.

      Regards,

      Skod
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      what would your reaction be if the bigger sites like stars followed suit with the likes of unibet and banned these programmes?

      surely it would level the field out more and make poker a more enjoyable experience?

      thx for your input shane
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      would it also bring more recreational players into the game and make fishes hang around longer?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      yes, it is. i've beaten midstakes for well over a year without using a HUD, up to 8 tables or so (i did use HUDs before that)

      and i think a site not facilitating HUDs has all sorts of advantages. i think it's very good for the poker ecology
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by Skodljivec

      1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample
      lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      yes, it is. i've beaten midstakes for well over a year without using a HUD, up to 8 tables or so (i did use HUDs before that)

      and i think a site not facilitating HUDs has all sorts of advantages. i think it's very good for the poker ecology
      I totally agree with this comment kruppe, I think it would serve poker in a good sence to stop facilitating huds
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      Originally posted by Skodljivec

      1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample
      lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.
      I'd imagine anyone who wins at nl5k+ long term is a genius, with or without a HUD?
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Bierbaer doesn't use a HUD if I recall and neither do I, but then I don't beat midstakes (or any other) either! :D
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      I personally don't use a HUD but I beat the micros in 9/45 man turbos, will be interesting if I can beat the $1.50,s + - its also very encouraging to see people can beat the games without certain programmes.
    • Skodljivec
      Skodljivec
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2011 Posts: 5,709
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      Originally posted by Skodljivec

      1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample
      lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.
      Well, when i said genius i was thinking smart beyond avarage :D . Not literally a rocket scientist or anything. With a hud and hard work imo even the beyond avaragely smart people can make a living off poker. But they need the software.

      Kudos to you to crushing w/o a hud. I've never heard of such a thing, therefore i assume you are very very intelligent, and fit what in my mind is a genius (basically i think of a genius of anyone that's smarter than me hahahaha)

      Regards,

      Skod
    • murzius
      murzius
      Gold
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 131
      i think it has much more hud if you multitabling many tables or a big poker site with a lot of players. If it lower traffic not so many new players you can just take notes and can try without hud. Becouse some players can just play differnt in this day :) ) :D
    • wazawanga
      wazawanga
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 1,720
      Originally posted by Skodljivec
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      Originally posted by Skodljivec

      1) depends on how good you are and which stake you want to play. You'd have to be a genius imo to win at 100+ w/o hud on a decent sample
      lol no. whether you could win at nl5k+ HUDless with fairly high volume without being a genius is debatable imo. you don't have to be anywhere close to a genius to beat nl100+ though.
      Well, when i said genius i was thinking smart beyond avarage :D . Not literally a rocket scientist or anything. With a hud and hard work imo even the beyond avaragely smart people can make a living off poker. But they need the software.

      Kudos to you to crushing w/o a hud. I've never heard of such a thing, therefore i assume you are very very intelligent, and fit what in my mind is a genius (basically i think of a genius of anyone that's smarter than me hahahaha)

      Regards,

      Skod
      a lot of people play with no hud at mid and high stakes, I know a lot of them that actually are absoute beasts of the game. I like playing with a hud because i understand mine so much and make use of it but it's definitely not even close to making up my winrate, probably at most 20% of it.



      people at microstakes and low stakes ofen use massive huds that they don't even understand which i think is very good for the games :)

      if you wanna win money just work hard on your game and winrate will come
    • Skodljivec
      Skodljivec
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2011 Posts: 5,709
      Well imo there's no way you are a winning player without making at least basic notes. And the hud shows them. So sure you can win w/o a hud, but you need a pencil and a piece of paper imo :D .

      That being said i know guys that crush HU w/o huds. But it's different cause you can really focus on the guy. There's no way you are 12 tabling and winning w/o hud. At least i'm yet to see that happen haha :D
    • rompas
      rompas
      Moderator
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      Joined: 12.02.2014 Posts: 2,367
      if you are good at takeing notes and have a good memory i think for sure possible beat the game without a HUD..
    • shanesmith
      shanesmith
      Global
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 202
      Would also be interesting if sites actually had a little picture if opponents using HUDS? Like they do with playing on mobile devices.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      haha, ok, then i guess i am a genius by your definition :)
      but i really don't think i'm a genius, and even if my IQ or whatever fullfilled the official criteria of 'genius', i would disagree with that. for me a genius is something more rare/special. i know quite a few people who are as clever as me, and we're not all genius imo.

      and i disagree that the NL5k winners are all genius. i strongly suspect that many of them are less intelligent than me, but work much harder, have better discipline/professionality, spend more time on poker, etc. those things are more important than being a genius, not just in poker imo. poker in particular is an area in which genius is rewarded much less than people think (with there probably being a trend in this direction. i think 5+ years ago genius was rewarded much more, with a lot of players making it to the top simply by out-playing and thinking their opponents a huge amount of the time. e.g. the 'smart fish' durrrr (one of the dang brothers called him that once in an interview), who was extremely spewy/fishy/crazy but was just too smart for his opponents until they became more solid.

      funny you should mention notes, as i've always been huge on notes. notes are completely different information to stats in HUDs, or at least they were up until notecaddy (i don't know enough about notecaddy to say whether it would be an OK replacement for my own style of notes/observation, but i doubt it), which has started bridging the two types of observation.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      also, GTO theoretically disregards any information on your opponents, which includes stats. so if a player is able to use a purely GTO approach and have a positive winrate, which i think some players are, then the answer to the thread is yes.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,903
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      also, GTO theoretically disregards any information on your opponents, which includes stats. so if a player is able to use a purely GTO approach and have a positive winrate, which i think some players are, then the answer to the thread is yes.
      I play 5-Card Draw and I'm sure I did better before I had my HUD :s_cry:
      In that game, the HUD is really only useful for players on whom you have over 500 hands, by which time you pretty much know them anyway.

      I DO take extensive notes, but I use Pokerstars' own system for that, not the HUD's.

      As for Game-Theory Optimal, it seems to me that to use it effectively, you need to deviate from it strategically -- otherwise, it is a route to break-even at which point rake eats your wallet for breakfast.

      Great thread!
      VS
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,174
      Nice thread going here with some awesome discussion and good points made. So interesting that I have decided to make it into a poll (after speaking to Shane first ofc)

      Enjoy

      Laz

      Btw Yes. (otherwise I may as well give up now. :f_biggrin: )
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