Do you slowplay premiums with fish at the table?

    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      How do you play your premiums when there are fishes at the table.

      Example:

      -MP opens, you have KK on the BU and there is a big fish on the blinds.

      Do you always slowplay here? What if you were out of position? For example, MP opens you have KK on SB and there is a big fish on the big blind.

      thanks!

  • 30 replies
    • rompas
      rompas
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.02.2014 Posts: 2,728
      generally i play premiums aggressive, since the fish will call with a wider range then normal nit regs

      i sometimes flatcalling if there is players after me to act that have a high 3bet stealing %
    • hoagy
      hoagy
      Silver
      Joined: 21.10.2014 Posts: 81
      Did the MP open raise or limp?

      I might min raise in hope that all 3 see the flop and and then try push the MP off with a large bet (flop depending) leaving me alone to fish.
    • XandreW36
      XandreW36
      Silver
      Joined: 05.09.2010 Posts: 197
      Nope, always 3 betting. IMO, if fish likes his hand he will call 3b anyway :P
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      it really depends on the fish's squeezing tendancies and the opener's fold to 3b. as a general rule I tend to slowplay mostly when opener's ft3b is high and fish sqz > 8.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,112
      Originally posted by booomm
      it really depends on the fish's squeezing tendancies and the opener's fold to 3b. as a general rule I tend to slowplay mostly when opener's ft3b is high and fish sqz > 8.
      Bingo.

      However if only limpers before me, or a raise and a call before me I will almost always raise fairly big.

      Cheers,
      VS
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by booomm
      it really depends on the fish's squeezing tendancies and the opener's fold to 3b. as a general rule I tend to slowplay mostly when opener's ft3b is high and fish sqz > 8.
      Bingo.

      However if only limpers before me, or a raise and a call before me I will almost always raise fairly big.

      Cheers,
      VS
      yeah with 1+ limper obv just click pot and raise it
    • TRUPLO
      TRUPLO
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2008 Posts: 2
      with fishes on pokerstars you cannot rely on knowledge ..its just bingo time
    • double2
      double2
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 14,642
      I think we have to be careful here, it's true that by calling pre flop we increase the chance of the fish coming along, but we have to realize that that way also let 2 players see the flop with a weaker range cheaply. If I have KK on the button I'm not sure I want to call and let UTG see the flop with A5s and fish on the BB with 78s.

      Usually I never call KK pre flop there, I guess flatting AA is a lot better since villain's overall equity will be lower.

      Other example, Hero opens BU AKo, fish flats SB, Reg squeezes BB, I don't like to flat here ("to bring on the fish"), we have a clearly +EV 4bet with AKo, I'm not sure we want to play a mwp here, even IP.
    • Schkisz
      Schkisz
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.11.2007 Posts: 1
      i play monsters aggresively almost all the time... if fish like their hand, they will call no matter the preflop bet... =)
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      I think that's the best argument to never slowplay nuts with fish behind. You convinced me :D
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,145
      YEAH MAN!
    • larsonk7
      larsonk7
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2012 Posts: 137
      Don't call players fishes ;)

      And no, never ever slow play a big hand.

      Or you'll be that guy whaling about how a "fish" busted my Aces with 57 o/s.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,112
      Agreed.
      On both points.
      Worse then the guy wailing about getting his aces cracked, you could end up being the guy who nets 6BB for his monster.

      How will a player know to put money in the pot unless you put some in for him to call?

      Cheers,
      VS
    • CustardKid
      CustardKid
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.05.2014 Posts: 171
      i think that a call would be fine with an agro fish on the BB that likes to squeeze every hand he has chance too the question is would you 4bet or call personally i think calling would be fine if mp folds but 4 bet if he calls. to a passive fish in the blinds i think 3bet is the way, although i would prefer a call if mps FT3B is high.

      Just remember if you decide to call here and a passive fish tags along and donks the flop fold and move on!
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Originally posted by double2
      I think we have to be careful here, it's true that by calling pre flop we increase the chance of the fish coming along, but we have to realize that that way also let 2 players see the flop with a weaker range cheaply. If I have KK on the button I'm not sure I want to call and let UTG see the flop with A5s and fish on the BB with 78s.

      Usually I never call KK pre flop there, I guess flatting AA is a lot better since villain's overall equity will be lower.

      Other example, Hero opens BU AKo, fish flats SB, Reg squeezes BB, I don't like to flat here ("to bring on the fish"), we have a clearly +EV 4bet with AKo, I'm not sure we want to play a mwp here, even IP.
      Hm disagree here, flatting and playing mw with the fish will be perfectly ok, especially if we have aks. Virtually no difficult decisions and tremendous implied odds
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by larsonk7
      Or you'll be that guy whaling about how a "fish" busted my Aces with 57 o/s.
      Amazing spelling! Highly appropriate :s_tongue:
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I'm struggling to think of a scenario where flatting is better. Denying everyones equity is a pretty big deal. Especially with a hand like AK, AQ.

      The fish would have to be tight preflop and either spastic or very, very loose postflop.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      We win virtually zero from the fish when we 4bet, getting it in vs the reg will be debatablely good and the times we call the fish won't food and we play a pot in position crushing both ranges with tonnes of implied odds
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,559
      Imo the only good argument for saying which line is better is to either prove it mathematically or experimentally (analysing database). Since both are nearly impossible, then we are left with "logical conlcusions", which bring us imo to interesting discussion but likely pointless.

      Since we cant decide which line is max EV, imo it makes most sense to do what pleno suggests, because the biggest winner among us has highest probability to have best solution for such problem.
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