3bet range adaption

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Hi,
      I noticed that my 3bet preflop success is only 42%. I am using as default polarized ranges vs unknown but after seeing this result, i thought it is better to 3bet value heavy range vs unknown:

      Vs utg: QQ+, AJo+, Aks, KQo.
      Vs mp : Same
      Vs co : TT+, AT+, KJ+
      Vs BU: 88+, AT+, KT+, A2s+
      Vs SB: same as bu

      Imo with such ranges i would perform better than polarized, but drawback is that my cold call range becomes weak and would have trouble defending vs cbets.

      Alternative is imo to use standard polarized value part of range, and instead of using weak bluffs as 58s i could use K8 and similar which flops better.
      Or to simply not use bluffs at all.
      Again drawback is that preflop we dont defend enough agro the blinds which increases EV of open raiser.
  • 7 replies
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I'm not sure that logic checks out.

      One could take the argument that, you should only 3b with your polarized bluffs, because their equity (or equity you can actually realize) against continuing ranges plus the folds you are getting makes them more profitable than folding.
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Gingerkid, man, I think you read my mind. Every post you open is about something I've been thinking lately :D :D

      I opened a post regarding this not so much time ago. My 3bet succes is also very low and I saw that my 3bet bluffs were not winning money. How do you with your bottom range when 3betting?

      The ranges that you suggest are too wide imo. Hands such as AJ, Kq, etc will usually perform much better as calls versus early positions. And as you say, your calling range would be too weak.

      Imo, you can do a couple of things. You can just 3bet for value against people that fold too little. You can widen your value range but not so much. This is obviously exploitable in the sense that you don't bluff enough but it's hard to notice if you keep bluffing against people that fold a lot.

      Second option is to create a 3bet/calling range specially in position. And you can do this with hands such as medium suited connectors as well as your vaue range (you semi depolarize your range). I've been experimenting with this and it's working very well. My opponents 4bet with a very polarized range and they play face up in 4bet pots.




    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      I wanted to add another thing. We are very used to using polarized ranges in most spots: we raise very good hands, we call medium hands, and we bluffraise hands too weak to call.

      But there is another school of thought that says the following regarding 3bets: the opener has to defend at least 33% of his opening range versus a 3bet. And an optimal player won't let you 3bet profitably with too weak of a hand. SO we should 3bet for value with a depolarized 3bet range (33% of his opening range, same range as he is defending, maybe a bit less oop but you get the idea) to break even against him and to not let him openraise too wide.

      So against an optimal player, wouldn't be a mistake to use a polarized range? I think polarized ranges are very useful to exploit poeple folding too much but I'm not sure that they make much sense in theory... I don't know, who knows hehehe.


    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by jules97
      I'm not sure that logic checks out.

      One could take the argument that, you should only 3b with your polarized bluffs, because their equity (or equity you can actually realize) against continuing ranges plus the folds you are getting makes them more profitable than folding.
      Hi Jules,

      Can you please explain what is wrong with value heavy ranges vs population that folds only 40% of time? Or say what do you think is best approach?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      I wanted to add another thing. We are very used to using polarized ranges in most spots: we raise very good hands, we call medium hands, and we bluffraise hands too weak to call.
      I dont use polarized ranges preflop because people dont fold enough nor preflop nor flop, so it is almost impossible to play bluffs +EV. Sure vs people vs who fold enough on either preflop or postflop I would bluff polarized, bluff heavy.

      Postflop is similar. People dont give me credit at all for raisies, so I very often cr TPTK.
    • ZeDawning
      ZeDawning
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2011 Posts: 204
      Simply put, it depends on which option will maximise EV for our whole range.

      Taking your info on f3b being low in general, it probably would be true that a depolarized 3b range is probably gonna generate a higher EV than a polarized range.

      Although we lose EV in our CC range since its weakened, we probably more than make up for it in our 3b pots since we play a bigger pot w a stronger range than villain.





    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by ZeDawning
      Simply put, it depends on which option will maximise EV for our whole range.

      Taking your info on f3b being low in general, it probably would be true that a depolarized 3b range is probably gonna generate a higher EV than a polarized range.

      Although we lose EV in our CC range since its weakened, we probably more than make up for it in our 3b pots since we play a bigger pot w a stronger range than villain.

      Yes I agree.
      Vs guys who dont fold preflop not postflop enough, when I hit top pair it is going to be very profitable spot, so preflop equity of a particular hand doesnt matter much.
      And when you e.g. only cold call e.g. AJo or KQo vs CO open, it is hardly going to be huge +EV.