donk when flush completes, board pairs

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,559
      Scenario 1:

      If we have e.g. T :spade: 9 :spade: and call preflop vs open raise OOP. flop comes e.g 2 :spade: 5 :spade: K :club:
      and we cc flop and turn. On river if we hit flush, I am wondering if we need donk range.
      When flush comes on river, the fact is that most of the draws from villian range did improve, meaning that on river when he bets he doesnt have so many bluffs to bet (unless he turns hands into bluff which is imo not optimal). Also if we check he will bet hands that he has value vs our range, so it will mostly be flushes and maybe 2 pair+. With Ts9s, we cant even value raise so we mostly cc and this way protect our check range. He would surely check back hands like pairs which is mayority of villian range.

      So the main point why I would donk flushes (especially lower) is because we cant cr them, and because we dont expect villian to bluff frequently once we check. So if he doesnt have so many bluffs in range on river, then he really cant exploit our top pairs, 2nd pairs by betting, so imo we dont need to protect check range.
      Off course big benefit of having donk range is that we can bluff some 2nd pairs with flush blocker, or bluff some busted OESD, which we would have to give up if we have only check range.

      Scenario 2:

      Another scenario would be when flush comes on turn. In that case, villian has many potential bluffs (any spade fd or even other bluffs since it is scare card), and thats why imo it makes sense to check mostly flushes. We can off course donk lower flushes to avoid seeing another spade and check back. So in this scenario I would mostly check flushes on turn and river.

      For scenrio 1 and 2, the same applies when straight completes, especially 4 card straight or 4 card flushes.

      Scenario 3:


      We hold TJs and call preflop open raise OOP. Board is T :spade: Q :diamond: 2 :diamond:

      We cc flop. Turn comes T :club:

      Now many villians will pot control top pairs either turn or river, so we will loose value by checking. Also many villians will not bluff often, because they pot control top pairs, so they cant value bet so many hands.
      So again imo good spot to donk draws and Tx. If we have some weak kicker, off course we can use smaller bet sizes.

  • 6 replies
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      I would highly consider developping donking ranges in the spots you mention. and I would donk big (potbet most likely).

      The clearest example is when 2nd card pairs on the turn. Since that helps the caller range a lot, the pfr will check back a lot. So developing a donking range is almost mandatory imo.

      When flushes hit it is not so clear who benefits the most (who will have more flushes, the pfr or the caller?). But since most top pairs etc will not value bet, then donking with flushes and some bluffs is probably good idea.

      The problem is that if you donk your best hands then you dont have them in your checking range. In your 3rd scenario that's not a problem since the opponent hasn't got many trips either when we check. And in situations when flush hits it would be more dangerous, but I think you can have a capped range on the river without getting punished: there is only one bet left and as you said the opponent won't have many bluffs in his range.

      In conclusion, donking when 2nd card pairs and when flush hits (especially on the river) makes a lot of sense to me. :D :D




    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      A couple of hands that suit our discussion... I was curious and I filtered some check call turn, donk river hands.

      Party, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $50 (100 bb)
      BB: $53.50 (107 bb)
      MP: $51.89 (103.8 bb)
      CO: $125.06 (250.1 bb)
      BTN: $81.07 (162.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with T Q
      MP raises to $1.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.25, BB calls $1

      Flop: ($4.50) Q 9 3 (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $2.80, Hero calls $2.80, BB folds

      Turn: ($10.10) 5 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP bets $7.07, Hero calls $7.07

      River: ($24.24) 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $17.50, MP folds

      The opponent was very very nitty. In fact, being 3way, If I dont bluff in situations when draws hit I'm not sure I can call on the turn... What do you think? By the way, I would donk bigger I think...

      Party, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $54.78 (109.6 bb)
      BB: $126.69 (253.4 bb)
      Hero (UTG): $65.29 (130.6 bb)
      MP: $92.25 (184.5 bb)
      CO: $113.08 (226.2 bb)
      BTN: $50 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A Q
      Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $4.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $3

      Flop: ($9.75) 6 Q 9 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $6, Hero calls $6

      Turn: ($21.75) 3 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $10.15, Hero calls $10.15

      River: ($42.05) Q (2 players)
      Hero bets $44.64, BTN folds

      I think the caller has way more Qx than the 3bettor. Mandatory donk push imo.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,559
      Hi,

      Imo hand1 is too weak to call preflop.
      Flop i would lead but surely ok to call. Imo averagy guy will bluff GS and better draws on such flop. On turn imo very marginal call but still ok. River i like donk. It would be obviously better to donk flush blocker but you likely dont have them in range.
      Even though other draws missed and thus you have some SD value, imo reg will bluff such river often enough so that donk becomes better. I like your size, it should fold all one pair hands in villian range (maybe not pairs with diamond).

      Hand 2 is imo great. Villian can hardly find fold when all draws miss and will hardly bet KK+ or bluff
      I would here shove all Qx, because we anyway loose vs better hands and this is the spot where he cant make huge bets and exploit us.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,559
      Are you playing still on party poker NL50? Fast forward? I play there nl100 fast but when there are not enough players i play nl50
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Yeah, still on nl50. Next month nl100, my bankroll is ready!!

      But I play on partypoker.fr though. i'm living in France right now.
    • ZeDawning
      ZeDawning
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2011 Posts: 204

      Scenario 3:

      We hold TJs and call preflop open raise OOP. Board is T :spade: Q :diamond: 2 :diamond:

      We cc flop. Turn comes T :club:

      Now many villians will pot control top pairs either turn or river, so we will loose value by checking. Also many villians will not bluff often, because they pot control top pairs, so they cant value bet so many hands.
      So again imo good spot to donk draws and Tx. If we have some weak kicker, off course we can use smaller bet sizes.
      *Assuming this is late position.
      *Assuming we dont raise most of our draws on F (which Id usu. go for).
      *Assuming unknown villain

      I dont think I like donking w Tx here.
      I much prefer x/r T w Txs here. Villain's nutted hands are very small compared to his overall T betting range.
      So by raising Txs here, I would also raise some of my better draws too (FDs, SDs w OCs etc).

      I probably would like donking w TPGK on T and then include some of my weaker draws (GS etc).

      The problem for me w donking T w Tx and include draws to balance this is simply that our donking range is going to be heavily weighted towards draws than Tx.
      We cant profitably face a raise, neither do I think we can profitably barrel R once villain calls.

      Meh, I could be wrong ofc.