2 years

    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Hi all!

      just want to ask you this: If I invest 2 years of my life for MTT will I be happy that I did that instead of cash 6-max grinding.

      I will give myself 2 years to become +EV player.

      Is there enough money in MTT? I will invest my time and effort in poker hugely no matter what.

      Just want to make sure that 2 years from now I don't feel that I choose wrong game.

      I like MTT more but the reward ratio is more meaningful to me.

      Thanks!
  • 16 replies
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      It's hard to compare 6max cash and mtt, and almost impossible for us to tell where you will be happier if money=happiness , i believe $$$ wise you will be better of in 6max cash, especially if you are just starting out in poker, from what i have seen with hard work you can get pretty sable income every month playing cash quite quickly. Variance in mtt is just so huge, you can easily run few months without any significant score, it can get mentally and financially very hard for you at times.

      If you study hard than money will be everywhere.

      If you decide to play mtt, i would recommend to start with 45man or 180s, if you plan on playing mtts later on, 180s would be the best place to start, they are smaller variance games, and you can build your bankroll and climb stakes from 1$ games to 35$ ones, once you get to 8$/15$ games you should be able to grind profitably micro stakes turbo mtts and if you want you can than switch to non turbo mtts if you want, as you will have learnt a lot of useful things til than.

    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Thanks!

      Really great reply. Helped alot with plan and all. Thanks
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Shoud I play turbo 180?

      Thanks!
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,198
      Hey RiQRiQ,

      No reason why not. Like MTTs they have a start phase, a middle phase, a bubble phase and the Final Table. As Rufus433 posted, they have lower variance but a fairly ordinary prize scale, so be aggressive on the bubble because you need to make FTs at 180s to have any chance of being profitable.

      Regards

      Laz
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      It depends on your situation, i think turbo games are the best for guys who starts out in this field, its easier to learn your push/fold ranges than how to balance your turn cbet range according to GTO. Less post flop play = less mistakes you can make. You will need Holdem resources calculator or icmizer, check out pokerstrategy video section there are quite a lot of videos about 180m and turbo mtt games. Check them out, should be helpful.

      Talking about bubble, it is not entirely true, every spot is unique, but in general with short stack i believe you dont want to make b/e jams on bubble, because rarely anyone cares about the bubble so you wont get any extra FE with your jams and in longterm getting ITM will make quite a portion from your roi.
    • Jakkosh
      Jakkosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2013 Posts: 261
      Good luck! I am just about to start to try and grind micro MTTs, mixed in with 180 mans to make up tables.
      Have been practicing a little I and get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but the swings can be very painful at times and thats just with a small sample!
      If you haven't already, I would recommend following Asaban's MTT Beginners course and/or the 180 man SNG Course. Like Rufus said if you study money is everywhere. The extra knowledge here on pokerstrategy has certainly improved my chances.
      Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Hey RiQRiQ =)

      As others already said, money can be made in every variant if you put enough effort into it.
      It's hard to say where you will earn most money. Depends on your knowledge, motivation and of course your luck.
      I would suggest playing what you enjoy most.

      If you decide to play MTT's I would recommend starting with my mtt beginner course:
      MTT Beginner Coaching: Discussion and feedback thread

      If you have any further questions feel free to ask!

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Thank you all! And Asaban the most!

      This will be fun and a lot off work. The MTT guide is the best. No FTs yet but every time I have dropped I have been a huge favor. So it works.

      I will study 1 hour daily and play couple. So 180 turbot are great for the time that i have in weekdays.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Your welcome!
      Best of luck with your tournament career.
      If you have any questions regarding the strategies let me know =)

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Hi again!

      How should I work my push fold game?

      - Do people really use chards all the time? Did notice that there are a lot of charts done about this.
      - There is some apps and all to this. Do they work?
      - Or do guys memorise these all?

      Really would like to do this in my own head (to be multi tabling soonish) and want to work towards it as soon as I know how.

      Also did notice that some chards use 10bb the maximum for push/fold play. Any reasons for giving this a go instead of the 15bb?

      What villains stat will I use when calculating the Call range for Hero?

      Thanks and sorry for putting so many questions in same post!
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Charts are a good way to get started.
      However, in the long run, you shouldn't rely on charts since they are very static and won't take all factors into account.
      Personally I know the ranges that I can push when I see the situation. But that needs quite a bit experience.
      Best thing is to analyse these spots again and again and see if your decision was correct or if another range would have been better.

      Are you sure the charts use 10BB as a maximum and not M=10? That's very different =)
      Further information on the M-factor can be found in this article (unfortunately silver+): http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/mtt/1557/1/

      Regarding your stat-question I am not sure if I understand what you mean. When you try to give your opponent a pushing range to decide if you can call or not you rely on VPIP/PFR mainly.
      In general you would choose a standard range (that a regular would push) and adjust it according to the stats of your opponent.

      If you have more questions just ask :)

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Thanks again Asaban!

      You are right. It was M and not bb.

      Ok so I will start to do the calculations and try to get grasp on this.

      At the calling question you did answer the way I was trying to ask :) so thank you.
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      About how big % of players in 180s are winning regs? Have read that there is a lot. Is there still room? Just want to make sure I put my effort in the right game type. Thanks!
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Hard to say.
      Also depends on the buyin you want to play obviously.
      In general the 180s got way tougher lately, but should still be beatable with a reasonable ROI if you are skilled enough.
      Everything up to 2,5$ buyin shouldn't be too reg heavy.
      Overall the 180s are a bit harder to beat in comparison to normal tournaments with the same buyin.

      Everything I said is meant for the turbo variant. The non-turbo 180s should still be quite fishy.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • RiQRiQ
      RiQRiQ
      Silver
      Joined: 15.08.2010 Posts: 118
      Thanks! Asaban!

      So there is sides for everything.

      If one beats the turbos they are somewhat good already. And good to go ahead.
      But it is tough job to get to that level first.

      Thanks.
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      As Asaban said, charts are useful only in beginning, its a guide for you in this area, its good way to start out, later on you wont need charts if you put in work to understand why you can or cant push certain ranges in diff situations, charts gives you very generalized idea what to do. I have not seen a reg in higher games who have never used Holdem resources or icmizer, it's crucial study tool.
      These tools are best for analyzing preflop situation, especially calling allins. Asaban said that mainly you will making your decisions using VPIP and PRF, what is quite inaccurate, you can use these stats only on players who you have small sample size and their stats are way off, for example 22/5 40/10 or something like that, where you obv see that if they play aggressive they have it. You need to put in your HUD stat called Raise first in by each position, it wont be to helpful in the beginning, but you will fast get sample sizes in 180s so you will get way better understanding about your opponents and their playing tendencies than from VPIP/PRF.

      Check out Collin Moshman 180s videos in video section, also tomsom87 have some good videos there.

      As i said before if you work hard you will find money in 180s. It is harder now as games gets tougher all the time, but that only means that you need to put in the work.
      To give you some proof that it is possible, i posted my this years graph from 180s, i started playing 180s in January only 6-8 tables and i wasn't even beating 2.5$ ones at the time, when i realized that i started to work on my game, 2-3 times a week for several hours at time, just looked at my hh, and studied the game as hard as i was able. 11 months later i am playing ~30 tables at the time and all games up to 35$, so dont give up it is possible.