Question regarding Non All-In All-In

    • Calsaj
      Calsaj
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2011 Posts: 22
      I've been searching around for content relating to the concept of 'Non all in all ins' (NAIAI), regularly employed by Colin in his sweat videos. I've watched the majority of his videos but haven't come across any focused explanation.

      The surface level benefits off the top of my head are:

      - Induce inattentive opponent into miscalculating pot odds (would this even make a discernible difference assuming it's always employed during Nash Phase?)
      - Manipulate the opponent's tracking database so the hand does not count as a shove when the opponent reviews the session, possibly obfuscating your shoving range in the eyes of a regular opponent

      Are there any other benefits?
      When are the suitable times to employ this strategy?
      Do we only employ it when we want to bait a pot odds call or 3-bet that wouldn't ordinarily be likely if we shoved full stack?
      Is there any related content available?

      Thanks
  • 6 replies
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi there! I can also add the benefit of our opponent not paying attention it's a committing raise, so that it look stronger. F.e. you have 5bb BTN and you raise to 3.5x, if our opponent(BB) is multitabling, he might see that as sign of a strong hand and fold A2s f.e. in comparisson if we have shoved.

      Also, in games where there is ICM involved, you might take this step and fold if 2 or more players get all in before you. Let me give you an example-you are on the BTN 6bb deep, playing 65:35 pay out 6-max SnG. 3 people left, you are the short stack. You have A7s and you know it's a profitable shove, but it's more profitable to just raise it up, say to , 4x and fold if both SB and BB go all in before. That is because there is a huge ICM tax and you need to win 3 way pot to stay in the game. Which is gonna be tough.

      Hope you understood my point :)

      Cheers!
    • Calsaj
      Calsaj
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2011 Posts: 22
      Cheers!

      Not sure how I missed the second scenario, I suppose I only ever think of that in the extreme of being on the bubble with a premium hand but the shortstack has <1bb left so we leave a chip or two behind, didn't register that these are the same concept.

      The 'feigned strength' benefit is interesting but very hard to integrate for a typical ABC turbo player, in most spots where we think we can extract more value than shoving, the most profitable play is typically a min-raise, assuming we're at 75/150 or higher. With that in mind it's difficult to integrate the NAIAI into our system whilst maintaining the narrative/image we've been projecting, the story would stop making sense. Personally, I can't see any way I could add this to my own game without losing value/respect from my raise-call/raise-fold range.

      Perhaps I could fuse some stronger hands into the NAIAI range and implement it that way? Would that force more marginal folds by inattentive players or is it too transparent long term? Would it be sabotaging the potential for call-offs to my premiums?
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,878
      Two biggest advantages comes from multitabling regs to misread situation (e.g. you minraise with 3bb stack and they dont notice your actual stack size) and situation where you can fold if two or more villains go allin behind. E.g. you have 5bb in BU, SB has 6bb and BB has 10bb. You raise e.g. to 3bb, SB shoves and BB calls. You can now fold most of your opening range. Most effective to use when players go with increasing stack depth from your position as range villains are playing versus 2 allins are obviously stronger.

      One advantage mostly versus recreational players is that they can call preflop and still fold flop versus small bet. One version I personally use from SB is also limp&go. Lets say you have like less than 2.5bb in SB so its very unlikely to get fold preflop. One option to create more fold equity can be to limp and shove any flop. Makes most sense with some low hand like 53o, which you still have to play outside of some folding war situations.

      Personally I dont have any defined range for non allin plays. If situation gives some advantage to me go with nonallin I tend to take it with all hands I would have shoved. Though not that I would always use it when having lot of tables and action. If situation allows to use minraise its obviously different situation completely.
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,878
      One kind of sick situation related to nonallin was recently in 6max bubble. BU made nonallin with 10bb leaving like 0.1bb behind. I had middle stack in SB with JJ and called. Chip leader behind shoved and BU folded. If I had folded I would have had like 1bb left. Had to call (villain probably still has enough worse) and villain turned KK.
    • Calsaj
      Calsaj
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2011 Posts: 22
      Originally posted by ghaleon
      One kind of sick situation related to nonallin was recently in 6max bubble. BU made nonallin with 10bb leaving like 0.1bb behind. I had middle stack in SB with JJ and called. Chip leader behind shoved and BU folded. If I had folded I would have had like 1bb left. Had to call (villain probably still has enough worse) and villain turned KK.
      Thanks for your posts.

      Closest I've had to this recently is I had 5100 on the bubble and the passive chipleader to my left had 5300, blinds were 200/400 so both shortstacks were embroiled in a folding war which the chipleader appeared to join, whilst this usually indicates a poor player he did seem to understand the dynamics of the situation somewhat so I was shoving very wide from all positions and 100% blind vs blind. In the end one of the shortstacks has <1BB left and folds UTG so I shove the BU any two, the chipleader inexplicably calls from the SB with A-10o and the BB calls with an A-x hand too and takes the pot down, knocking me out. In Wiz apparently he was justified in calling with a-10o whereas I assumed even KK is a fold in that spot where he's more or less guaranteed ITM just folding and taking his spots UTG where I can't call from the BB?
    • minoepoe
      minoepoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.03.2010 Posts: 39
      Originally posted by Calsaj
      Originally posted by ghaleon
      One kind of sick situation related to nonallin was recently in 6max bubble. BU made nonallin with 10bb leaving like 0.1bb behind. I had middle stack in SB with JJ and called. Chip leader behind shoved and BU folded. If I had folded I would have had like 1bb left. Had to call (villain probably still has enough worse) and villain turned KK.
      Thanks for your posts.

      Closest I've had to this recently is I had 5100 on the bubble and the passive chipleader to my left had 5300, blinds were 200/400 so both shortstacks were embroiled in a folding war which the chipleader appeared to join, whilst this usually indicates a poor player he did seem to understand the dynamics of the situation somewhat so I was shoving very wide from all positions and 100% blind vs blind. In the end one of the shortstacks has <1BB left and folds UTG so I shove the BU any two, the chipleader inexplicably calls from the SB with A-10o and the BB calls with an A-x hand too and takes the pot down, knocking me out. In Wiz apparently he was justified in calling with a-10o whereas I assumed even KK is a fold in that spot where he's more or less guaranteed ITM just folding and taking his spots UTG where I can't call from the BB?
      A10o is a bad call there for me, regardless of what Wiz says. However, I also think it's a poor shove on your part if the big stack is to your left and there's 2 small stacks in there. If you and the big stack wouldve switched position, I would push any 2. But you are risking your entire stack when there's a guy with less than 1 BB left guaranteed to be eliminated within a few hands. You can literally fold into the money. Even if the bigstack would only call QQ+ here, this is still a position where I would not shove. If you really must be aggressive here, raise enough to put the shortstacks allin, while leaving room to fold if the bigstack calls or shoves you. Shoving in your spot just seems like financial suicide to me.