asymetric ranges, how to defend with weaker range

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Hi,

      If hero and villian have asymetric ranges, how do we defend with weaker range? Usually it is 1-a, but in this case how much should we overfold?
      Imo we should defend in any case only hands that are +EV, but often it is tough to conclude if marginal hands are +EV, so imo we can simply fold such marginal hands, and defend only hands that are clearly +EV?

      Example:
      CO open raises, hero calls BU.

      Flop: 2c 4h 2d

      So this is imo example where CO has much stronger range, and it only seems that PP+ are +EV hands to defend, also maybe AJ? Since reg will usually barrel this kind of board very frequently using big bet sizes, then it is questionable if defending PP and Ax is +EV for the whole hand?
  • 44 replies
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      If we have the weaker range, I don't think we should be thinking in terms of minimum defence frequency. You are right, I think we should overfold and that is ok.

      In most CO/BU vs big blind situations we just call with a very weak range since we have very good pot odds. But then we are forced to overfold in many situations on the flop but that is normal. How much we should overfold? Who knows...
    • ETBrooD
      ETBrooD
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 2,421
      Originally posted by Shakaflaka
      In most CO/BU vs big blind situations we just call with a very weak range since we have very good pot odds.
      True, though GK is talking about BTN vs CO ;)
      I'm also curious about this, I'm still not 100% convinced how I should split my ranges preflop.
    • Shakaflaka
      Shakaflaka
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2010 Posts: 512
      Ups, you are right. In BUvsCO we will have a stronger calling range than in the blinds, so we should defend more often postflop, but on the board he is talking about, CO has a clear advantage. Having said that, defending with pairs+, Ahigh and some good ovcards + bdfd should be still Ev+ I think.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      The reason we can simply fold more from the BB for example when we are defending is because we are getting quite a good price, but also for example if by the price we are getting we have to win 20% for example, it actually doesn't work like that. If the pot on avg increases by 2x, we actually only need to win the pot 10%. As far as knowing exactly what % to defend, nobody knows and if anyone tries to tell you they do ask them to show you how they solved the game. It's kind of an art form, and the art is just making the best guesstimates with the info we have. As far as posting my specific ranges, I will not do that on a public forum. That would be private coaching or you are better off getting coaching from Internet by paying a bit more.

      As far as BU vs CO, it's a bit different since we had 0EV situation pre so we have to treat it differently. Shakflaka gave you a good starting point imo.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      If the pot on avg increases by 2x, we actually only need to win the pot 10%.
      Did you account that the pot increases by 2x on each street is happening because we put 1x in the pot, so winning only 10% of the pot at the final hand in average is going to be huge -EV?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      As far as posting my specific ranges, I will not do that on a public forum. That would be private coaching or you are better off getting coaching from Internet by paying a bit more.
      I understand your reasons for not keeping detail ranges for private coatching (I would do the same), but I think it is no wonder why there are less and less people commenting in NL100+ section lately. Diamond videos coming as often as Christmas, and then very often the content is nothing new or special (only Internet videos are super worth). Coaches answer only how to play single hand (not all, e.g. coach weasel answers me in detail whatever I ask), and I think at level of NL100+ we can hardly benefit from learning by heart how to play single hand, instead of learning how to play ranges and explaining more theory. So I think ps.com is a big failure lately.

      Also why would I take you as a coach among other coaches, if I only saw partial answers from you? If you would from time to time provide some ranges, then I could say, ok he has some very good ideas, I like his style, so I will take him as a coach. I am sure that providing a range for single hand is not going to reveal the secret of your strategy. Sorry If I sound rude, but I am already frustrated that I made many posts in advanced sections, and a week ago after long time Internet answered few threads by asking question (so discussion didnt finish and he usually doesnt come back to the thread), and now you answered with a partial answer. i hope you dont take it personally because I give honest opinion.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      Ups, you are right. In BUvsCO we will have a stronger calling range than in the blinds, so we should defend more often postflop, but on the board he is talking about, CO has a clear advantage. Having said that, defending with pairs+, Ahigh and some good ovcards + bdfd should be still Ev+ I think.
      Obviously that would be candidates for defending range, but the main point of this thread is to answer if defending any of those hands can be expected to be +EV for the whole hand? Usually good CO reg having much stronger range will play with high frequency bomb bomb bomb, and imo floating one-two streets is going to be horrible. Also if you defend Ax hands and bdfd on flop, CO can even start betting AJ+, and small PP for value flop and turn, and his bluffs like JQo have so much equtiy vs your range, that we have to consider it as partially value hand and paritally bluff, so it turns out CO has almost all value hands or strong semi bluffs (or semi value) hands in range.

      So I think on such board folding everything except strong hands is very likely going to be max range EV.
    • wazawanga
      wazawanga
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 1,720
      what the fak is asymetric range?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by wazawanga
      what the fak is asymetric range?
      range which is not symetric :)
      Villians have asymetric ranges when one of them has much stronger range. you can check internet video about it just search the asymetric ranges
    • ZeDawning
      ZeDawning
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2011 Posts: 204
      Just a thought. Why not check what pokersnowie would do in its scenario analyser?
      I probably dont have any useful thoughts to give on this. Heh, only today did I know what asymmetric range meant :f_biggrin:
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      [quote]Originally posted by GingerKid

      re coaching, state of PS etc
      It's not like anywhere else is better than PS. It's just hard to expect players to give good content away when it's their livelihood.
      The only time we get any decent NL content anywhere is when either a good player decides they've had enough of NL and are only playing PLO or something now and are happy to give away their stuff. Or when a good player who has worked hard and is just moving up to midstakes gets a bit excited and gives stuff away without thinking too much of the consequences.

      I think coaching is ok, but for price to value and just overall benefit, I don't think you can go past a sub to some good software and plain old hard work.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by ZeDawning
      Just a thought. Why not check what pokersnowie would do in its scenario analyser?
      I probably dont have any useful thoughts to give on this. Heh, only today did I know what asymmetric range meant :f_biggrin:
      i dont have any software. Is that software going to explain why it constructed specific ranges, or just outputing result? If it just outputs results, then I can get idea about ranges there,
      but I dont think I can apply one hand result and generalize it without understand it why their software thinks it is good range.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      [quote]Originally posted by jules97
      Originally posted by GingerKid

      re coaching, state of PS etc
      It's not like anywhere else is better than PS. It's just hard to expect players to give good content away when it's their livelihood.
      The only time we get any decent NL content anywhere is when either a good player decides they've had enough of NL and are only playing PLO or something now and are happy to give away their stuff. Or when a good player who has worked hard and is just moving up to midstakes gets a bit excited and gives stuff away without thinking too much of the consequences.

      I think coaching is ok, but for price to value and just overall benefit, I don't think you can go past a sub to some good software and plain old hard work.
      But how can each video from Internet be so valuable, each minute is brilliant in his videos? He shows mostly theory videos, where he explains new concepts. Also uri peleg shows in his videos many exploitative approaches which I like a lot. Unfortunatelly uri peleg doesnt make many diamond videos lately, and Internet makes videos very rarely. And from most other coaches, I start watching video and after 15 min I realize how it is nothing new and waste of time mostly. In hand evaluation forums, coach w34z3l explains me everything I ask. He doesnt provide his detailed ranges, but at least he explains everything. mblm is also even providing ranges, and explainig good, but lately he stopped answering threads (hopefully on holiday).

      So for most coaches, this forum lately looks like opportunity to commercialize their private coaching, by lets just answer the threads by giving them rough idea what they could learn from me if they pay me private coaching. Few days ago I posted around 20 hands, and coach serverm07 asnwered all of them, by answering something like:

      Hi GingerKid,
      3bet preflop.
      call flop,
      fold turn.
      Thanks.

      So for each hand I had to ask questions why do you think it is better than what I played, and after all I just thought what a waste of time was posting and reading those hands.

      So since pokerstrategy earns money from our rake, I would expect some quality content from them, and not just commercials. I would expect, new articles from time to time (there are no new articles at all), some videos with hot theory content (and not just showing how they can steal blinds and cbet and 3bet in very standard spots), and some good quality answers in hand evaluation forum. For me it would be enough to post only one hand per day in forum, if the quality of the answer would be high (range anlyses not only single hand), but because that is not the case, I have to post 20+ hands per day if I want to advance, so that I can derive conclusions how to play my range.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      It's not like anywhere else is better than PS.
      I never tried any other forums, but even if it is truth that PS is the least bad poker forum among all bad forums, then we as users should at least give them feedback (to both PS and coaches) what we think they can improve, and what is good. I think most of people would be thankfull for any kind of feedback, if their interest is to improve themself, and not take it personally.

      E.g. 2 weeks ago I wrote in one thread how PS forum has one of the worst designs and functionalities among all websites I used, and that it looks like somebody programmed it during student summer break, and then in one week came this new fancy design :) probably coincidense. Still functionallity of the forum is very low, it is not at all user oriented
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      can you please state exactly what you mean by 'asymetric ranges'? you use the term as if it's standard, but i've never heard it and i've been a winning mid-stakes grinder for a while now.
      (ok now i see you already answered that. but the term 'asymetric' seems a bit misleading to me, suggests other meaning apart from just one range being stronger than the other. is that really exactly what you mean by 'asymetric'? x and y are symetric generally means more than one metric of the relata, e.g. strength, is equal. it usually says something about the arrangement/shape/structure of the relata)
      also what does '1-a' mean?

      in your first example, BU flatting CO OR and low, dry flop, why do you assume that CO preflop range is much stronger than BU? CO probably has about 30%, maybe 35%, BU will be folding a lot of hands out of those 30% and can be flat-calling the top of his range at an unknown frequency. not only that, but some of the marginal hands that miss this flop will be put in BU's 3bet range and thus removed from his flatting range. (btw, question: what % do you think BU should defend vs 30% CO open, total of flats+3bets?)

      on this particular board texture i think i do agree with what you're saying, at least the way i interpreted it: problem with this board is that theres just not going to by a strong range we can represent on any turn/river (except if turn is 3 and river is 5 or something like that). now there are various ways of reacting to this and manipulating perceived ranges of various lines, but i don't want to get into those details.

      imo overall we should just over-fold this flop and see it as a correct reaction to negative variance: this is simply an unlucky flop given preflop ranges

      that being said, maybe that's not necessary at all, because a) we have position and b)our range isn't actually much weaker than CO (of course depends on our exact preflop strategy)
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      and if i take your question more generally, then imo it applies to nearly all or all situations in poker, as it's very rare that 2 opposing ranges are of the exact same strength. so maybe your question is actually just generally questioning balanced GTO range construction: should we really use unexploitable frequencies or should we play overly tight/passive when we have the weaker range an overly aggro/loose when we have the stronger range?

      i can'T answer that question. hopefully i will solve it soon, but when i do, i still won't answer it :P

      disclaimer: maybe my question relies on me misunderstanding certain parts of the concept of GTO play. not sure. and my question may even be contradictory in some way, but maybe you know what i mean.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Here you can learn about asymetric ranges.
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/32388/

      It is not my terminology, I dont know who gave it a name but imo the name makes sense. Symmetric ranges would mean that e.g. % of nut combos would be similar in both ranges, % of weak hands etc. And Asymmetric would be exactly opposite of that.
      1-a usually refers to defending unexploitable, where "1" is the sum of all probabilities, and "a" is the % of hands that fold in our range, so 1-a is the defending probability.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      x and y are symetric generally means more than one metric of the relata, e.g. strength, is equal. it usually says something about the arrangement/shape/structure of the relata)
      also what does '1-a' mean?
      Symmetry is actually used everywhere, but most common in mathematics. It is not only shapes, structure, data as you say. It is related to proportion / balance / relation.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530


      in your first example, BU flatting CO OR and low, dry flop, why do you assume that CO preflop range is much stronger than BU? CO probably has about 30%, maybe 35%, BU will be folding a lot of hands out of those 30% and can be flat-calling the top of his range at an unknown frequency. not only that, but some of the marginal hands that miss this flop will be put in BU's 3bet range and thus removed from his flatting range. (btw, question: what % do you think BU should defend vs 30% CO open, total of flats+3bets?)

      CO has much stronger range because he has much higher % of strong hands, like trips, and strong overpairs which he can use to overbet multi streets for value and bet this way many bluffs in unexploitable range. BU can off course slowplay some KK+, but still it just very small % of his range, and still CO is much stronger. I dont know what is optimal defend frequency BU vs CO, I would guess around 15%, but I never analysed it. it is also a bit off topic.