Ideal stats for 5-Card Draw

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,738
      I'm not sure that these are "ideal" however.
      Some time ago I ran a query against my database that shows what stats winning players have.
      This is a repost of the entry from my blog.

      Data is only from 2014-01-01 on, and only looking at players with over 2000 hands

      Some general tendencies begin to emerge:
      Winners:
      Enter slightly fewer pots, but do so with a raise more often <= no surprise
      pre-draw 3Bet more AND fold to 3Bet more. <== I think that it is critical to take the money when it is there, and get out of the hand when you're beat.
      Appear to 4Bet less pre-draw, and fold to 4Bet less <== sample size?
      Steal more <== I need to add the fold to steal and raise to steal stats in here
      See the draw much less.
      Get to showdown significantly less
      Win at showdown more <== well duh
      Are more aggressive

      Things I would like to do:
      Add some post-draw stats besides aggression and showdown. Any suggestions?
      Test for positional awareness.

      5-Card Draw all limits combined sample size >2000 win rate < 0 BB/100
      code:
                      n     vpip      pfr      pf3      pf4     pff3     pff4    steals    saw_f    sawsd    wtsdwsf     wmsd    FlAFq       Net    BB/100
          Min:    2,284    16.50     7.20     1.60    14.30        0        0      8.70    15.20     9.50      57.70    43.90    12.30    -50.41     -3.94
          Max:    4,381    30.20    16.50     7.30    54.50     5.90    33.30     21.60    27.90    19.30      69.10    56.30    32.40     -1.43     -0.11
          Avg:    3,035    22.14    11.78     5.44    29.42     1.50    14.48     15.54    20.98    13.62      64.28    49.62    24.02    -22.73     -1.64

      5-Card Draw all limits combined sample size >2000 win rate > 0 BB/100
      code:
                      n     vpip      pfr      pf3      pf4     pff3     pff4    steals    saw_f    sawsd    wtsdwsf     wmsd    FlAFq       Net    BB/100
          Min:    2,145    18.80    15.50     5.70    10.70     7.30        0     21.30    15.30     8.70      54.40    49.70    23.00     11.22      0.86
          Max:    7,528    24.50    20.30    11.00    32.70    33.90    12.20     29.30    19.00    11.40      65.80    54.40    45.10     25.53      2.59
          Avg:    4,258    21.80    18.88     8.14    17.30    16.00     7.52     26.02    16.68    10.18      61.16    51.76    31.10     17.51      1.46

      Players included in the above -- guess which one is me :coolface:
      code:
                      n     vpip      pfr      pf3      pf4     pff3     pff4    steals    saw_f    sawsd    wtsdwsf     wmsd    FlAFq       Net    BB/100
        on…nd:     2395     24.5     19.9      5.7     10.7     33.9     10.0      29.3     19.0     11.4       60.2     52.2     23.5     25.53      2.59
        Ep…10:     2145     22.1     20.0      7.2     11.5     14.8        0      28.6     16.0      8.7       54.4     49.7     45.1     18.70      2.04
        oo…na:     6380     18.8     15.5      6.7     14.4     12.2      8.3      21.3     15.3     10.0       65.8     54.4     23.0     11.22      0.93
        Fa…hi:     7528     21.1     18.7     11.0     17.2     11.8     12.2      24.4     16.8     10.7       63.5     50.9     31.4     17.85      0.86
        Mr…AA:     2842     22.5     20.3     10.1     32.7      7.3      7.1      26.5     16.3     10.1       61.9     51.6     32.5     14.27      0.86
        ma…41:     2727     19.4     16.4      6.1      8.2     17.8     20.0      24.9     15.0      9.8       64.9     60.2     20.0     19.91      0.73
        he…ro:    72059     19.9     16.4      5.6      9.8     23.7     25.4      24.0     17.7     11.2       63.5     49.8     32.2     52.24      0.51
        Jc…ll:     2599     22.5      7.3      1.5        0        0        0      10.2     22.3     14.2       63.6     55.3     18.3     -0.15      0.03
        no…if:     2432     22.3      8.3      1.6     19.2        0        0      10.9     23.0     15.0       65.5     56.3     12.3     -1.43     -0.11
        Sa…ys:     3142     19.3     16.5      7.2     26.7        0      9.1      21.6     16.7      9.6       57.7     48.2     32.4     -8.25     -0.42
        ha…21:     4381     16.5     14.0      7.3     14.3      1.6     13.3      18.7     15.2      9.5       62.7     50.0     21.8    -13.75     -0.67
        Se…oo:     2938     22.4      7.2      4.4     54.5        0     33.3       8.7     22.1     14.7       66.4     49.7     23.9    -39.82     -3.04
        ZO…26:     2284     30.2     12.9      6.7     32.4      5.9     16.7      17.8     27.9     19.3       69.1     43.9     29.7    -50.41     -3.94

      Note that the ranges overlap.
      VS
  • 6 replies
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      Interesting! Since I don't use a HUD for 5cd, what are the title headers between saw_f and Net? Folding to the 3-bet should be easy for those players that have played PL/NL 5cd ( and maybe some of them fold to the 3-bet too often ); after all, this is not a flop game ( where most of the time pot equities are not that dismal ) in comparison to the common situation in 5cd when you have a very weak two pairs and are up against better two pairs.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,738
      The database is used for all variants, so saw_f == saw flop, which to 5-Card Draw would be saw draw.
      net is $won.
      BB/100 is big bets, not big blinds. The original query was in big blinds, which confused me a bit so I changed it.


      VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,738
      Originally posted by bigpooch
      Folding to the 3-bet should be easy for those players that have played PL/NL 5cd ( and maybe some of them fold to the 3-bet too often ); after all, this is not a flop game ( where most of the time pot equities are not that dismal ) in comparison to the common situation in 5cd when you have a very weak two pairs and are up against better two pairs.
      I Fold to 3Bet pre too rarely, I fear.
      A lot depends on who is doing the 3Betting.

      Example, if I've opened AAxxx UTG, and get 3Bet from an aggressive BTN or from the blinds I will almost always call.
      Even assuming no one else is in, the pot is 3.75 Big Bets, and you need to put in 1 to call.
      So you're getting 3.75:1 and the odds of getting Aces up or better are 2.48:1 -- or am I missing something?

      If I think I need trips or better, then I look for pot odds of 6:1 -- It's a bit short, but if you hit, you can often get a further BB off him post draw.

      He may also be raising a draw I've already beaten.
      This is where I get into trouble.

      Call the CBet or not?

      Cheers,
      VS
    • Rettungs1zeichen
      Rettungs1zeichen
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.08.2010 Posts: 1,392
      Hi VorpalF2F,
      here are some thoughts on the game.

      a) Probability 2-Pair / 5,26 : 1....... 15,985 %
      a) Probability 3-of a kind / 7,75 : 1...... 11,433 %
      b) Probability full house / 97,33 : 1...... 1,017 %
      c) Probability 4-of a kind / 7,75 : 1....... 0,246 %

      The probability of succending is 28,681 % (15,9865+11,433+1,017+0,246)__ 2,49 : 1


      Example : Stakes 0,10/0,20 $
      BigBlind = 0,20 = BB
      SmallBlind = 0,10 = SB

      1) PreDraw (with aggressive BTN)
      Deadmoney from:
      __BigBlind = 1 SB (0,10 $)
      __SmallBlind = 0,5 SB (0,05 $)
      Hero raise = 2 SB (0,20 $)
      BTN 3-bet = 3 SB (0,30 $)
      Pot = 1+0,5+2+3= 6,5 SB (=3,75 BB)
      Hero call 3-bet PreDraw ...1SB __6,5 : 1


      2) PreDraw (with aggressive SmallBlind)
      Hero call 3-bet PreDraw ...1SB___6 : 1


      3) PreDraw (with aggressive BigBlind)
      Hero call 3-bet PreDraw ...1SB___5,5 : 1



      My Questions:

      a) Is your HUD running ?
      b) How can i create these tables ?


      To the statistic i write to another date something.

      You have the Stat CAPre = Call Preflop Raise ?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,738
      Originally posted by Rettungs1zeichen
      a) Is your HUD running ?
      b) How can i create these tables ?

      You have the Stat CAPre = Call Preflop Raise ?
      a)I use fpdb for 5-Card Draw and games other then NLHE. My database is MySQL. fpdb supports sqlite, MySQL and postgresql . I chose MySQL because if the current version of fpdb, session stats are only kept when using that database. Also, it has good analysis tools -- and its free. (I like free)

      b)I downloaded the source code for fpdb with the idea to modify it to produce additional stats[1] . It is a bit beyond me. I have take a course in Python since, and may give it another go. The queries that produce the tables are modified from the ones in the source that build the HUD cache. I run the queries in Excel, and paste them here. The actual query is in my blog somewhere.

      I do have the stat "CallRaisePreFlop" in my HUD, I don't know why it is not in the table above -- it would be a good one to include.

      All the best in 2015,
      VS

      [1] Stats I would like but aren't in fpdb:
      :diamond:   Drawing frequency -- how often a player draws 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 cards in what positions. You can gets these stats with a query, but with over 250K hands in my database, the query is taking 12 seconds or so even with the database on a solid-state drive -- and that is only to get pat frequency by position. To do this propery, it will be necessary to build a proper positional cache table.
      :diamond:   raise and limp first in by position. RFI is useful for all positions, but I really would like to know how often SB open limps.
      :diamond:   Any other suggestions?
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      I'd like to know how often the SB has open limped and folded; and when the SB has open limped, the distribution of hands ( for the whole database ) for each specific number of cards drawn.