Defending vs large open raise sizes

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      hi,

      I know standard cold call and 3bet ranges vs standard open raise sizes. How does those ranges change when villians increase open raise size?
      E.g. if someone open raises 4bb from BU, do you ever defend by calling? what about 5bb, 6bb...
      Similar vs other positions. I know that we have to defend less, and especially cold call less, but are there some hands that can +EV cold call e.g. 4bb open riase from e.g. MP? i guess in that case our range would be very capt
  • 8 replies
    • ETBrooD
      ETBrooD
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 2,421
      Is this a frequent spot on your tables or are you interested in constructing a 4bb+ strategy? If it's infrequent I wouldn't care much.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      It is frequent, off course almost allways by fish. In party poker, if you play on smartphone, it is very tough to select 2bb-3bb open raise size, but much easier is 4bb, 6bb, 8bb, so very often fish uses this sizes, and then I am not sure what is the best.
    • ETBrooD
      ETBrooD
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 2,421
      Well, from a math point of view we need 5% more EQ, but since we're starting preflop that is of course not the whole truth. Also, against fish we defend looser than optimal against 3bb open, so we can also defend looser than optimal against 4bb. I personally don't care one bit if I'm capped against a fish, unless it's a spot that even fish know almost inside out.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      I also dont care at all about being cappt, just wondering if there is math, with which I can decide if calling is +EV or not. E.g. hands as 89s-KQs are never having equity advantage, but have good playability IP.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      always depends on information available at the time of the hand.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      always depends on information available at the time of the hand.
      I am more asking about theoretical approach, how to adjust our ranges vs unknown villian who iso raises or open raises larger sizes than standard. similar would go for 3bet sizes. If I would tell you, we have specific information on the table, then the solution is trivial.
    • pappadjango
      pappadjango
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 107
      take the theory based option as outlined in previous concepts throughout
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      Interesting question!

      There is of course a mathematical approach versus unknown (GTO). But since we can fairly safely assume villain is a fish, I think it is simpler to try to play exploitatively. What I mean is that one should keep the eyes open, and (perhaps more than usual) rely on reads based on relatively few hands. A seen showdown is worth a lot more than usual in case someone is off main track.

      One approach would be to play very tight without any read. You loose a little EV here, but gain in terms of small variance. Once the read comes, adjust.

      A different approach would be to be fairly loose (based on your observations in a post above about smartphones). Probably +EV, but high variance. Again, once the read comes, ...

      These are just my thoughts. GTO is probably too hard to even try to approximate. Hell, even open sizes aren't nearly figured out. Yet still, the way to do it (approximate, that is) is probably to experiment with ranges on a trial and error basis. Takes time.