Coaching with Oblioo 01/08/15 - Raising Flops. Answer the question and/or post your own HHs here!

    • oblioo
      oblioo
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 02.10.2012 Posts: 337
      I will be doing a coaching this Thursday focused on raising flops in NL. To begin the discussion, we have this sample hand:

      MP opens, Hero flats BTN with :8h: :7h: , and blinds fold. Flop is :Ks: :5h: :3s: and villain bets 2/3 pot. What do you do and why?



      Also please post your own hands in this thread where you either raised the flop or you think it might be a good idea to raise the flop, and I will review them on Thursday.

      catch ya soon
  • 14 replies
    • Anomic
      Anomic
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2012 Posts: 557


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $25.10
      SB:
      $28.99
      BB (Hero):
      $27.72
      MP2:
      $13.03
      MP3:
      $7.40
      CO:
      $26.22


      Preflop: Hero is BB with J, T.
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.50, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25.

      Flop: ($1.1) 2, 9, A (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.70, Hero raises to $2.10, MP3 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $1.8.





      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $8.40
      SB:
      $36.49
      BB (Hero):
      $28.00
      MP2:
      $20.11
      MP3:
      $85.69
      CO:
      $22.94


      Preflop: Hero is BB with T, A.
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50.

      Flop: ($1.6) 7, 7, 9 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.76, Hero raises to $3.04, MP3 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $2.36.





      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $53.68
      SB:
      $23.62
      BB (Hero):
      $25.23
      MP2:
      $25.00
      MP3:
      $25.00
      CO:
      $61.12


      Preflop: Hero is BB with K, J.
      2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50.

      Flop: ($1.6) 9, 2, Q (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $1.25, Hero raises to $4.21, CO folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $2.85.





      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $51.51
      SB (Hero):
      $28.92
      BB:
      $9.21
      MP2:
      $30.19
      MP3:
      $62.31
      CO:
      $12.54


      Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, A.
      2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BU folds, Hero raises to $1.00, BB calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

      Flop: ($3) 4, 8, Q (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $0.75, CO folds, Hero raises to $2.75, BB folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $3.75.





      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BU:
      $22.34
      SB:
      $25.00
      BB (Hero):
      $29.73
      MP2:
      $7.40
      MP3:
      $53.42
      CO:
      $45.95


      Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 9.
      3 folds, BU raises to $1.00, SB folds, Hero calls $0.75.

      Flop: ($2.1) A, 7, 3 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU bets $1.00, Hero raises to $3.33, BU calls $2.33.

      Turn: ($8.76) A (2 players)
      Hero bets $5.55, BU calls $5.55.

      River: ($19.86) J (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU raises to $12.46, Hero folds, BU gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $19.86.

    • Anomic
      Anomic
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2012 Posts: 557
      To answer the question; I would float if he cbets flop and gives up turn a lot, otherwise fold.

      If the :5h: was a :6h: I'd raise because we can barrel more turns
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      It depends on villain a lot IMO if he has a reasonably high FCB% then I would continue the hand by either floating or raising. I would probably lean more towards raising since I prefer floating drier boards as I think that makes more sense for how we would play the majority of our hands in such a spot.

      Raising the flop may result in him folding better hands better A-hi, no draw (if he c-bets frequently enough then I think this is reasonable) and some weaker Kx or Pairs < TP. If we get 3b then easy fold. If he flats then we can re-evaluate Turns choosing between applying max pressure on turns where we pick up equity (:heart: 's and non :spade: :6x:) or checking behind. Our flop raise may buy us a free look at the river, since villain will often check to us again OTT
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      sup dawg

      With the Example hand, I'd fold. :challenge:

      My raising range on the flop would be half of sets (33, 55). So only 3 combos, for bluffs I'd raise 3 combos of a4s (not counting the the fd one as a bluff) and then I prefer to raise 3 of combos of QJs (again no FD). I like these better because my range then hits a wider range on more turn cards, where it can turn more draws to straights and not be too FD heavy. With the equity picked up I think this makes it easier to get a solid ratio of turn bluffs to value bets where I only really have to barrel turns with picked up equity.

      I'd also raise a few nut fd's and then a few bd nut fd's to even them out.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Here's a hand against what I thought is one of the better regs I see regularly. I have no real exploitative approach to him. Apart from he opens 60% on BTN

      BTN: $692.64
      SB: $1185.76
      Hero (BB): $432.96
      UTG: $242.40
      MP: $418.24
      CO: $404

      Pre Flop: Hero has 7:spade: 5:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $12, fold, Hero calls $8

      Flop: ($24.50, 2 players) 5:heart: 4:heart: 4:diamond:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $16.32, Hero calls $16.32

      Turn: ($58.64, 2 players) Q:diamond:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $34.24, Hero raises to $94.40, BTN raises to $222.40, Hero raises to $404.64 and is all-in, BTN calls $182.24

      River: ($867.52, 2 players) 8:diamond:

      My thoughts.
      Plan on the flop was to raise half of 54s, 55, and all of 6:h7, A4s. So 5.5 value combos. For bluffs I thought my next weakest 5x, so 56s 3 combos. Then also 86s and 87s gutshots without a heart for another 6 combos. (and also a few fd and bdfd's combos)

      Then on the turn, I figured this was what I get here with my next worse 5x. So I raise for value A4o, K4s, and 50% of 54s, 55 (8.5 combos). Then as bluffs 2 combos of 75s (with no fd), 2 combos of 67s (no fd) i didnt raise the flop with, 4 combos of A2s, A4s (no fd) and also 8:h6, 8:h7 for 10 combos.

      And then he raised my raise. And I'm thinking fuck. Then I thought, I gotta raise some bluffs. And I'm shipping 55 and 54s for sure, so 5x makes the best bluff. So then yeah, just ship 1/2 my 75s.

      Free beers for anyone who can guess what he called with :coolface:

    • Fiftage588
      Fiftage588
      Global
      Joined: 01.04.2014 Posts: 1,726
      if i was balancing , i would be raising for value with 55,33 = 6combos , so i want 12combos of bluff , so i guess something with BDFD and BDSD can be good for this, so 87hh can be good, if 6 comes i have oesd, if 6h i have OESD+FD , others give me gutter etc... which i can continue to barell

      for call its too weak,
      fold is option too , so fold or raise
    • Cradlea
      Cradlea
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 555
      Full Tilt - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: 52 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
      UTG: 113.6 BB (VPIP: 20.59, PFR: 17.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.96, Hands: 1,842)
      MP: 43.5 BB (VPIP: 17.95, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 39)
      CO: 61.1 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 48)
      BTN: 125.2 BB (VPIP: 21.23, PFR: 15.90, 3Bet Preflop: 4.99, Hands: 1,340)
      Hero (SB): 200.3 BB

      Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: 8:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold

      Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 4:spade: 9:diamond: T:spade:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 5 BB, Hero raises to 14.5 BB, BTN calls 9.5 BB

      Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 18 BB, fold,

      Fold vs x/r 80 (4/5)
      Fold vs T c-bet 33 (1/3)
      Fold vs river bet 52 (11/21)
      AF F/T/R 2.9/1.9/2.3

      Should I continue to barrel on a total blank here or it's ok to just give up?
    • Cradlea
      Cradlea
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 555
      Full Tilt - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      SB: 110.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
      Hero (BB): 100 BB
      UTG: 100 BB
      MP: 101.7 BB
      CO: 43.7 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
      BTN: 104.6 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 33)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:spade: Q:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

      Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) T:heart: 6:spade: 8:heart:
      SB bets 4 BB, Hero raises to 12 BB, SB raises to 25 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

      Turn: (56 BB, 2 players) T:diamond:
      SB checks, Hero checks

      River: (56 BB, 2 players) 4:spade:
      SB bets 31 BB, fold,

      Unknown. What is the best play after his 3b OTF? After his x OTT is it mandatory to bet?
    • 24magus24
      24magus24
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 3,767
      $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

      SB: $172.32 (344.6 bb)
      Hero (BB): $83.85 (167.7 bb)
      UTG: $123.46 (246.9 bb)
      MP: $69.74 (139.5 bb)
      CO: $71.10 (142.2 bb)
      BTN: $59.25 (118.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 6:club: 8:club:
      4 folds, SB raises to $1.25, Hero calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.50) 7:club: 9:spade: Q:spade: (2 players)
      SB bets $1.67, Hero raises to $4.75,


      SB: average regular, sb steal 50, cbet: 60, Fvraise: 50
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      I couldn't attend this coaching sadly. Can we watch a recorded version of the coaching anywhere?
    • teddypoker
      teddypoker
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 3,895
      Hi Muel294,

      The podcast will be released in the following weeks, please stay tuned :)
    • Scriminti
      Scriminti
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 310
      Jules -> 67h?
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Originally posted by Scriminti
      Jules -> 67h?
      It was Ace high, i think A7o or something stupid... :f_p:

      Request for Oblioo @ coaching: Leave questions for last or maybe something like twice a session and bash out the coaching (especially on coachings on theory topics like the 'preflop outdated' ones I just watched the vod of) like a video. A number of the questions seemed to be not relevant/basic or repetitive and tend to break up the coaching/video.

      The limping SB should be interesting. I haven't done much stuff on that. Given rake and bad BB play hasn't seemed worth it yet for me. My approach from BB against SB limpers has been to just not fold much at all pre and especially postflop. I'm guessing that a lot of guys that limp the SB have got a decent SB limping preflop game game going, but are not as competent playing OOP postflop with such wide ranges.

      I just checked the pokersnowie SB open range and it has it limping a tonne. Seems to change every time I look at it...

    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      ...