Quickly converting outs to odds?

    • ilostmysoul
      ilostmysoul
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2014 Posts: 78
      Hello guys :)
      So here's the thing I've been struggling with this for quite some time now, maybe you guys have a trick. I've been training pot odds for a while now so I got a good grip on those and I can quickly calculate them.

      The thing is, I can't compare them with my odds of improving because I can't calculate them fast enough. So I may know I have 5-to-1 pot odds, but I don't know what to do next. I read the article about Outs and Odds but to be fair the calculations are a bit tricky to do at the table. Cards that help/Remaining is just too hard without a calculator. And the simpler cards that don't help - to - cards that help is better, but I wonder if there's an even better way.
      Even if I do the 2/3 * Outs to calculate the probability trick, it's still a struggle, because now say I have a 15% probability of winning with 4-to-1 pot odds... Still can't compare those unless I find a quick way to convert those 15% to the odds format. I can do 1/5 and find those pot odds are "equal" to 20%, but the numbers aren't always this easy.
      Basically is there any quick way to tell what my odds of winning are (in the x-to-y format, not %) mentally, without using calculators or software or printing tables? Because the thing is if I'm always looking for a table or using a calculator when playing, after a short while I stop caring about the odds because it's just too much trouble and it's too repetitive and boring. And I'm also not going to use/buy a HUD until I have a good grasp in the game by myself...

      I've read the article about 5-6 times but still couldn't find a way to do this. Maybe it's there somewhere and I just don't find it? Does anyone have any quick trick?
      Thank you all in advance and good luck at the tables :)
  • 4 replies
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Hi ilostmysoul,

      I believe that the best way would be to simply learn the odds of the most common draws by heart. This may sound a bit intimidating, but it is simpler than you might think.

      Here are the most common ones (for one street):
      Overcards (6 outs): 7:1
      OESD (8 outs): 5:1
      Flushdraw (9 outs): 4:1
      Flushdraw + gutshot (12 outs): 3:1
      Flush draw + pair (14 outs): 2.5:1
      Flush draw + OESD (15 outs): 2:1

      If you're facing an all-in decision on the flop and therefore need to know the odds for two streets:
      Overcards (6 outs): 3:1
      OESD/Flush draw (8/9 outs): 2:1
      Flush draw + gutshot or better (>12 outs): 1:1

      Lesser draws like gutshots (11:1 odds) are rarely worth chasing, so you might as well ignore them for now.
    • ilostmysoul
      ilostmysoul
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2014 Posts: 78
      Thanks Harrier :)
      One question tho, am I supposed to only use the 2 street odds when someone is all-in? Imagine if I make a non-all-in call on the flop basing myself on the odds for the next 2 streets, and therefore I'm forcing myself to call until the end, but is this dumb? I mean yesterday it won me lots of money because I was on the end of a tournament on PS with an OESD on the flop and he bets the pot, giving me 2-to-1 pot odds. I call and call on the next street even tho the card doesn't hit, and finally I get it on the river and win the a huge pot that allowed me to bully everyone else on that table until barely the end.

      There are other situations, however, when I make the call until the end and I don't hit anything and I'm then forced to fold. But generally speaking, is that bad to make the call based on the 2 streets when you're not all-in? Assuming you're getting enough pot odds to make that call, so you don't need to consider implied odds, but you can assume implied odds are good too
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      When you make a call on the flop and none of the players is all-in, you'll have to make another decision on the turn whether you hit or not. Therefore, your initial decision to call only matters for one street. After that, you might have to invest more money.

      For that reason, the only time when you can use the odds for two streets is when you're sure that you don't have to make another call until the river is revealed. Most commonly, that happens when either you or your opponent is all-in on the flop.

      It is true that you can sometimes make a profitable call despite getting incorrect odds, but this is entirely covered by the concept of implied odds.

      Also, you mentioned that you play tournaments? Draws are actually played differently in this format, since a chip that is won in a tournament is not necessarily worth as much as a chip that is lost. Therefore, the pot odds being better than the odds might not always be enough to make a profitable play, and implied odds are also less relevant.
    • ilostmysoul
      ilostmysoul
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2014 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by Harrier88
      When you make a call on the flop and none of the players is all-in, you'll have to make another decision on the turn whether you hit or not. Therefore, your initial decision to call only matters for one street. After that, you might have to invest more money.

      For that reason, the only time when you can use the odds for two streets is when you're sure that you don't have to make another call until the river is revealed. Most commonly, that happens when either you or your opponent is all-in on the flop.

      It is true that you can sometimes make a profitable call despite getting incorrect odds, but this is entirely covered by the concept of implied odds.

      Also, you mentioned that you play tournaments? Draws are actually played differently in this format, since a chip that is won in a tournament is not necessarily worth as much as a chip that is lost. Therefore, the pot odds being better than the odds might not always be enough to make a profitable play, and implied odds are also less relevant.
      Well I just started playing the $.11 PokerStars tournaments since they are slow-paced for me enough to practise and play tight, but I've been on cash games until now. I actually had no clue pot/implied odds were not applied the same way here. Although I'm trying to get an organized studying (ie. Studying each chapter of David's Theory of Poker and complementing that with PokerStrategy's articles and change completly to the articles after finishing the book) I may take a quick look at the tournament articles, so thanks for poiting that out :)