Fish preflop cold call range

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,536
      On what preflop cold call range do we put fish (expressed in % e.g vs MP 25% range) for different situations:

      1) vs one open raiser
      2) vs open raiser and 1 or more cold callers
      3) from blinds


      So far i was just assuming it is wide, but now i am curious how much? I assume:

      1) 40%
      2) 60%
      3) 70%
  • 7 replies
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      This is a waste of your energy. Fun players play random depending on their mood, color of underwear, etc. They all vary so much. You are better of making notes on how they play post specifically with draws, how thin they value bet, any sizing tells, how light they call and just extrapolate on that.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,536

      You are better of making notes on how they play post specifically with draws, how thin they value bet, any sizing tells, how light they call and just extrapolate on that.
      Thanks for the advice, I find it very usefull, even though it sound very standard and logical, but I somehow pay minimal attention to those stuff. I mostly write notes, but then I play 4 tables fast forward or zoom, and I somehow rarely read those notes, and rarely imo increase EV by using notes. Do you have some suggestion how to improve that? Like one year ago, I had problem focusing on all relevant stats during play,
      like e.g. when I am on flop, now I look float stat, call stat, raise stats and make decision weather or not to cbet and also plan on turn and river, but bofore i was just not focused on that stuff (maybe it is matter of training, dont know). But still I have a problem reading notes.

      Yeah, seeing that somebody light calls or lgiht barrels is really great info, one hand sample is not much, but it is indicator, so I can adjust villian ranges accordingly. Also bet size tells are super important imo, so many people have them, even regs.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,536
      I also find interesting that you used word "extrapolate".
      So interested, how would you extrapolate, when you have a notes

      1) villian called down 8 times TPTK vs 3 barrels
      2) villian called 6 times TPWK vs 3 barrels
      3) villian called 4 times middle pair vs 3 barrels
      4) villian called 3 times weak pair vs 3 barrels
      5) villian called 2 times 2 pairs vs 3 barrels

      So here we have quite some notes, probably we would need a lot of sample to have it. Now, how do we adjust villians calling ranges by using this, using extrapolation method?

      I would say, from those small sample, we can extrapolate that villian mostly calls top pairs vs 3 barrels, but he is calling down lighter because we saw some samples of calling weak pairs and 2nd pairs, and we can conclude that he likely raises flop or turn most strong hands and is cappt on river?

      So our adjustment would be to value bet lighter than usual vs him, and bluff less on all streets, since because we saw him calling down light, likely he doesnt fold enough (but if he have such notes, then we likely have enough sample for fold vs cbet). Still imo such notes would help to value bet lighter, and likely not bluff much on river, if we dont have enough fold vs cbet stats on river (for which we need huge sample). Any other suggestions?
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      I'm sorry but it's too time consuming for me to write out every little bit of detail as to how you use the info. I have started offering private coaching and that would be your best bet to get info out of me but I'm not here trying to force that on to anyone. A lot of times it comes down to how you write the notes, because in game you have a limited amount of time to make a decision therefore you have a limited amount of time to read the note and/or any other info available to you.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      I also find interesting that you used word "extrapolate".
      So interested, how would you extrapolate, when you have a notes

      1) villian called down 8 times TPTK vs 3 barrels
      2) villian called 6 times TPWK vs 3 barrels
      3) villian called 4 times middle pair vs 3 barrels
      4) villian called 3 times weak pair vs 3 barrels
      5) villian called 2 times 2 pairs vs 3 barrels

      So here we have quite some notes, probably we would need a lot of sample to have it. Now, how do we adjust villians calling ranges by using this, using extrapolation method?

      I would say, from those small sample, we can extrapolate that villian mostly calls top pairs vs 3 barrels, but he is calling down lighter because we saw some samples of calling weak pairs and 2nd pairs, and we can conclude that he likely raises flop or turn most strong hands and is cappt on river?

      So our adjustment would be to value bet lighter than usual vs him, and bluff less on all streets, since because we saw him calling down light, likely he doesnt fold enough (but if he have such notes, then we likely have enough sample for fold vs cbet). Still imo such notes would help to value bet lighter, and likely not bluff much on river, if we dont have enough fold vs cbet stats on river (for which we need huge sample). Any other suggestions?
      The problem is in your notes. You need to develop some kind of a system that lets you know the positions, bet size, board, and if there were any draws and if they got there or not. Also noting that he called down with Top pair is going to be useless. He is expected to call with top pair so when he shows you top pair, you don't gain any information. On the other hand if he gets to river and folds 18/20 times while you don't get to showdown and while it's a small sample you can extrapolate a lot of info about him to other spots.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,536
      Also noting that he called down with Top pair is going to be useless. He is expected to call with top pair so when he shows you top pair, you don't gain any information.
      Exactly that it is not usefull at all, but makes my notes just unreadable.
      But I guess, calling down weak pair or 2nd pair is very useful, since we know that he super likely calls down light?
      E.g. it could be useful, betting big on flop, turn, river with set, and betting standard size top pair? Even one sample I guess would be nice indicatior? Or something like, donked flop with set, so we can exclude some set combos from flop check range?
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Now you are headed in the right direction. :f_drink: