When to cap pre-draw

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by Karl1977 in Sandbagging or trapping in FL 5cd
      "Slowplaying in 5CD is never correct. Since you often will not get paid off postdraw, with a very good hand, you have to build the pot as much as possible predraw by capping whenever it is correct to do so"
      Hey, Karl1977,
      Have you noticed that fewer and fewer players are capping pre with trips?
      Rather, I notice that when I 3Bet, I almost always get called, rarely if ever, do I see the betting capped any more -- unless I cap it. Furthermore, since at FL $0.10/$0.20 players so rarely even 3Bet w/ anything other than trips, I've been wondering if just calling with small trips might be a good idea.

      What do you think?
      VS
  • 8 replies
    • Karl1977
      Karl1977
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.08.2014 Posts: 10
      Hello Vorpal,

      Yes, I noticed, but it seems to be more common at 0.10/0.20 than say at 0.25/0.50 where the betting does get capped quite frequently.

      I'm not an expert but imo the fact that they are not capping predraw with small trips is a mistake. Why? Because if you hold trips, the chances are simply too high that you hold the best hand predraw at a 6 max table, even if someone raised in front of you (which he may do with AA, a two pair, etc.) And if you hold the best hand predraw, you are often a huge favorite in 5CD since there is only one more round to come (the postdraw round). Being probably a HUGE favorite predraw (it can be as high as 92% depending on what your opponents are holding, for example 777 is a 92.1% favorite over 3322X) you just have to get as much money as possible in the pot.

      Also, if you slowplay trips predraw, you are giving others a cheap chance to call with say a two pair and draw out on you by making a full house. Whereas if you raise with them, maybe you drive that lousy two pair 3322 out and you deny them the chance to beat what is usually the best hand predraw.

      Now, that's the "general idea", but of course your best play always depends on your opponent and how he plays. If you observe him and you notice that indeed, he only 3-bets when he holds at least trips, and if not, he just calls, you have to adapt accordingly and fold after his 3-bet when you hold lower than trips and maybe just call with trips. I must say I haven't seen this kind of player yet, but if you're sure his 3-betting range is limited to trips or better, you have to adapt your own ranges for calling the 3-bet or capping to that imo and maybe just call with low trips and forget about capping. There are situations in which it makes sense not to cap trips, and this is probably one of them.

      I think the reason why many players at 0.10/0.20 never seem to cap is simply because they do not understand how big a favorite they are with trips. Sure, sometimes it happens (especially at PokerStars lol) that two players are dealt trips predraw, but this does not happen all the time or every day. I think on average you'll win a lot more with trips than you'll lose with them.

      Postdraw is a different matter. If you hold say 666 but still have 2 or 3 other players with you, you cannot fold imo (unless someone stood pat and you think it is legitimate) but you have to be careful and not cap again postdraw.

      To be honest, I notice the weirdest things currently in online 5CD. At 0.25/0.50, there seem to be only nits who always seem to hold at least AA, AAXX or trips, and at 0.10/0.20, as you mentioned, you see some weird and very unusual plays such as limping in even with AA or two pair, not raising (let alone capping) with trips etc.

      Yesterday I saw a player who held a full house postdraw against 2 players drawing 3 and did not even value bet. And actually a month ago a Bulgarian player said in the chat that I was an idiot because I played inferior hands like QQ, JJ or TT, raising first in (which of course I raised from cutoff, button or SB, not from UTG or HIJ) and then hoping to get lucky :)
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      Multiway, you often should cap to get full value; after all, you only need your equity to be above roughly 1/3 in a 3-way pot. If the action gets HU, it sometimes makes sense not to cap if you are against any kind of player ( by that I mean, anyone that can read hands ) because by capping, you may get your opponent to save half a big bet or a whole big bet depending on the scenario. When you have position with KKKA or AAA, you may elect not to cap when HU because if your opponent draws cards, you have a value raise postdraw.

      Another situation to think about slowplaying is to smooth call with AAA when the CUTOFF open raises; the idea is you're hoping the BB ( or SB ) will play with TT-KK; thus, you prefer NOT to have any T-K in your hand ( this also makes it more likely the CUTOFF has TT-KK ) and you prefer NOT to have 3-1-1 suit distribution with your AAA. If you have any "bad feature" with AAA, it's probably best to just 3-bet. Since it was also possible for you to cold call the CUTOFF with AA ( you don't always 3-bet a CUTOFF open with AA ), this play ( smooth calling with AAA ) should work out okay.
    • Karl1977
      Karl1977
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.08.2014 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by bigpooch
      When you have position with KKKA or AAA, you may elect not to cap when HU because if your opponent draws cards, you have a value raise postdraw.
      +1
      In fact I noticed in my hand histories that I actually did this once recently, actually without much thinking on my behalf as to why, but probably 'feeling' or 'sensing' in this case that it was the right play.

      In a multiway pot predraw, you would cap with any trips to get maximum value for your hand which is usually the best hand predraw. Heads-up, it makes sense if an opponent acts first and shows some aggression by raising, to simply call his raise, especially if you hold high trips such as AAA and your chances of being outdrawn postdraw are minimal.

      Playing this way, your trips are 'disguised' and you create some deception, i.e. he won't figure you for trips, thinking that you would have capped with trips. Then postdraw he will probably bet again and you can raise for value, with a good chance that he will also call your raise. Playing in this way your expectation is definitely higher in this scenario than if you capped predraw
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      I'll try to find the hand that sparked this comment.
      IIRC the player limp/called UTG drew two and showed 444Ax
      He MAY have actually limped 44A but his stats weren't high enough for him to do that routinely.

      Well that's a wee bit embarrassing :facepalm:
      I'm sure that this is the hand, but it doesn't play like I remember it:

      Converting hands till T:e cows come home
      PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.10/$0.20 - 4 players

      UTG: $4.51
      Button: $1.85
      SB: $3.80
      BB: $4.00 (Hero)

      Dealing Hands: ($0.15) :8s: :Ad: :Jc: :7d: :Jh: (4 players)
      UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero checks

      First Draw: ($0.25) (2 players)
      Hero discards 3, UTG discards 2,
      :Jc: :Jh: || :9d: :Tc: :Jd:
      Hero checks, UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

      UTG showed :4d: :Qc: :As: :4h: :4s: , three of a kind, Fours
      Hero showed :9d: :Tc: :Jc: :Jd: :Jh: , three of a kind, Jacks
      Hero won $0.62
      (Rake: $0.03)

      Peace,
      VS
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      In FL HU Hold'em there is a GTO answer (for all practical purposes). Almost never cap preflop (once in about 10 000, less often than that with AA). See here: Cepheus - with the reservation that I might interpret the linked pages incorrectly. Interestingly, the thing does open limp more than it caps (e.g. 64o 0.12% - and 0.51% with AA).

      Edit: But it does some capping when being limp-reraised. Now AA caps 100%.
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      I had read that article before your post, but didn't find that all that surprising about almost never 4-betting/capping since there would be a division of the opening range when capping versus not capping; from a practical sense, a good card player is better able to evaluate flops based on the preflop action if capping by a specific opponent is not uncommon. There is something I mentioned before pertaining to fixed limit draw as well: if the BB is somewhat tight and you open raise from the cutoff, both your one pair range and your semibluffing range are fairly wide and often perceived to be so; thus, when you are 3-bet by the SB or BTN, not capping with a suitably strong hand ( where you can draw one ) may often gain an extra small bet or big bet compared to capping depending on the opponent and his hand.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      There is a built in conflict between "don't split ranges (early in the hand)" and "bet for value". In FL Hold'em, there are 4 betting rounds, but in FL draw only 2. I'd be more inclined to cap in draw than in Hold'em.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Since this thread started, I've been paying close attention to how FL $0.10/$0.20 and FL $0.25/$0.50 players are playing trips.

      Since that time, I have not observed so much as a single player capping with trips -- except yours truly.
      I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I may have been focused on another table at the time.
      In fact, when I raise w/ trips, most common response is call. When calling with trips, I see a lot of players draw two. This may be to balance drawing two with pair, but I can't verify this by observation.

      At higher limits, I see considerably more capping, with as low as Queens up.

      Not entirely sure what to make of all this...
      VS