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cold4bet ranges MP 3bet and hero on CO

    • vandeuren
      Joined: 21.11.2012 Posts: 576
      hey guys,

      I'm using double2 vid about cold4betting link to vid to construct standard ranges. in vid, co open en bu open were already covered
      just a quick summary of "strategy": the idea is to never coldcall 3bets, but just have a 4bet range that is part for value (so you want to stack off) and part as a bluff (around 40% of that range) or just openfold your hand eg:
      co open
      bu 3bet
      BB(hero)-value: AKs, AKo, JJ+ (3%)
      -bluff: AQo, AQs, AJs, AJo (2,4%)

      lets assume following scenario: 100bb deep, all villains unknow
      UTG opens to 3bb
      MP 3bets to 9bb
      CO( hero) ???

      my question is here mainly: what do we do with QQ here? I'm pretty sure JJ is an openfold here, but unsure if we can raise/get it in with QQ or AKs

      option 1: only 4bet KK+ for value
      value: KK+ (0,9%)
      bluff: AKs, half of combo's AKo (0,75%)

      option 2: include QQ for value
      value: QQ+(1,4%)
      bluff: AKs, AKo (1,2%)

      option 3
      value: QQ+, AKs (1,6%)
      bluff: AKo, AQs (1,2%)

      ps: while constructing the ranges, i noticed a mistake in the video, it is already mentioned in comments, i tried to adjust for mistake myself, feel free to also comment there to see if i got it right
      also asked about this spot btw, hope double2 finds time to read it :)
  • 7 replies
    • GingerKid
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,588
      Nice topic, didnt see a video.

      It depends what range MP 3bets. Standard value range is KK+, which means that only AA is a value stack off. Considering that, MP should also stack off AA for value.

      What are the reasons for not having Cold call range? So here we simply fold KK, even though it is surely +EV to call? Similar for late positions, we fold TT even though it is +EV?
    • vandeuren
      Joined: 21.11.2012 Posts: 576
      If i remember correctly, the reason for not cold calling is because we want to avoid playing with a capped range and the alternative, also calling with AA and KK will bring us in a multiway pot too often
      this reasoning was about not coldcalling in the BB versus a co open and bu 3bet btw , you might argue that being in position makes things different, this was not mentioned in the vid,
      also you still might want to coldcall with AA if you think people behind will cold4bet light (not very prob in this scenario imo)
    • GingerKid
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,588
      Yes, those are very common reasons. I am ok with that, i just dont agree to fold a hand which is playing +EV as a call, just because we want to avoid being cappt.

      Imo even if we could show to everybody that we have TT, but we can still play +EV as a call, still we should take max ev line.
    • vandeuren
      Joined: 21.11.2012 Posts: 576
      double2 reaction on video comments:
      "That situation on CO vs MPUTG, without reads, I think at these stakes it will be optimistic to 4bet/stack off QQ. Actually AK works better for that because you get more folds (but I think you have to call when they shove, not sure). QQ I think it's an open fold. With some reads we can adjust these marginal spots, like if we know none of the 2 players are loose then a open fold with AK is best and we just 4bet for value with KK+."

      following this reasoning , i came up with following range for CO
      option 4: value KK+, AKs 1,2%
      bluff: AKo 0,9%

      @gingerkid : I can def follow your point about not having to fold a hand even if it means our range is then capped in a way, think w34s3l made a similar remark in one of his vids, not entirely sure, will look it up
      also, in this spot, we will prob be in position and better implieds, so a hand like JJ will play better as setmine hand so, when hero is sitting in co or bu, having a flatting range might still be ok
      what would a capped callingrange look like here? TT-QQ ; and some suited broadways perhaps?
      Think i will still use a cold4bet/fold strategy when in sb and bb, because playing oop implieds are less
    • Riverdiver
      Joined: 12.07.2012 Posts: 1,126
      Why have a cold4 betting range at all in CO? If you don't 4b you don't cap your range, you're ip most of the time and if UTG 4bets you can throw away anything but KK+?
    • double2
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 14,642
      Well, the series is aimed at NL10-NL25 (maybe NL50) players, and with that in mind I'm very comfortable saying that playing a cold 4bet or fold strategy will be the best option for those players, they will mess up a lot more with a cold calling range than with my approach.

      Now, if we are discussing between more advanced players than that's fine. In 200NL I still don't have a cold call 3bet range and I'm very happy with it. I suppose we could definitely have one, I just think it's unnecessary.
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