iPoker 'Essence' Coming

    • TheOnePunter
      TheOnePunter
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2013 Posts: 15
      I know there was discussion of this at the time but now we know more of iPoker source based rake I feel it deserves it's own thread for discussion.

      Poker-VIP has released the plans of iPoker; (I've removed all the promotional stuff for their site)

      As mentioned a while ago, iPoker are changing their rake method effective Feb 1st.

      The new method calculates rake in two parts:

      * 50% is calculated based on the current Weighted Contributed system
      * 50% is attributed to the original source of the rake i.e. depositing player the rake has come from. Otherwise referred to as 'SBR' or Source Based Rake.

      When WC rake is added to SBR it is referred to as RPV (Real Player Value) Rake.

      ---

      Site Breakdown

      William Hill - Deals and payments will remain the same, but now be based on RPV.

      Note: There maybe further updates to William Hill. Final updates will happen tomorrow.

      PaddyPower - Deals and payments will remain the same, but now will be based on RPV. RPV rake will count towards player standings, instead of WC rake.

      BoylePoker - Deals and payments will remain the same, but will be based on RPV.

      Betfred - Same as BoylePoker

      Betfair - Players at Betfair will be placed on their new VIP Program where the top tier is 35% and based on WC gross rake.
      -------------------------------------

      Nearly all sites apart from Betfair will be using an 'Essence' like system and at Betfair the top tier will be reduced from 50% to 35%. Furthermore, as 50% of our rake is based upon the source base rake that the amount of strategy points we receive in rake races will not be the true figure because it will vary by the amount we win/lose.

      This is totally opposite to what Pokerstrategy stated when the plans were first publicised. JoeNote (Headadmin of Pokerstrategy) stated that:

      "As stated, every player continues to earn VIP points based on the weighted contributed, regardless of what the player value is in the end. It stays fully transparent, unlike Essence."

      As the company of iPoker also own Pokerstrategy could we get some clarification?
  • 11 replies
    • rompas
      rompas
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.02.2014 Posts: 2,367
      good post, i myself have a hard time to understand this and exactly how this will affect me
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      I don't understand it, but these days any rake change is a bad rake change for the players...:f_frown:
    • eddymurphy
      eddymurphy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2014 Posts: 64
      can anyone enlighten me / give examples about this rake changed ? i have read this thread many times and haven't understand some words above such as Source base rake SBR & RPV real player value what is that ????
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,164
      Hey TheOnePunter,

      It is a confusing subject and there is a lot of conflicting information out there but this is easy to explain:

      Originally posted by TheOnePunter

      Site Breakdown

      William Hill - Deals and payments will remain the same, but now be based on RPV.

      Note: There maybe further updates to William Hill. Final updates will happen tomorrow.

      PaddyPower - Deals and payments will remain the same, but now will be based on RPV. RPV rake will count towards player standings, instead of WC rake.

      BoylePoker - Deals and payments will remain the same, but will be based on RPV.

      Betfred - Same as BoylePoker

      Betfair - Players at Betfair will be placed on their new VIP Program where the top tier is 35% and based on WC gross rake.
      -------------------------------------

      Nearly all sites apart from Betfair will be using an 'Essence' like system and at Betfair the top tier will be reduced from 50% to 35%. Furthermore, as 50% of our rake is based upon the source base rake that the amount of strategy points we receive in rake races will not be the true figure because it will vary by the amount we win/lose.

      These are changes to Poker VIP's rakeback deals. These are not VIP changes by the poker rooms. There will ultimately be changes by the rooms as they tailor more of their promotions and bonuses towards net depositors.

      You can find the original conversation here.

      I have also sent out an SOS for JoeNote:f_biggrin:

      Regards

      Laz
    • JoeNote
      JoeNote
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 21.02.2007 Posts: 568
      Hi everyone,

      I will try to answer the questions you raised so far now, while PokerStrategy.com is publishing a news iPoker changes the revenue allocation between its skins. The news sheds some light onto the backgrounds i.e. why this change was done, what the upsides/downsides for players are and what this means for you at PokerStrategy.com. I am not going too much into details for the above, but like to make some points clear:

      1. Nothing has changed in regards to how rake or fees are collected
      2. There is no rake increase on iPoker
      3. You continue to receive VIP points that count for the poker rooms' VIP system based on your gross rake and fee - nothing changed
      4. PokerStrategy.com will not change anything in regards to how SPs are awarded, nor will we make changes in our status system due to the changes on iPoker

      The above already answers most of the questions that were asked by TheOnePunter in the opening post, but here in more detail:

      Nearly all sites apart from Betfair will be using an 'Essence' like system and at Betfair the top tier will be reduced from 50% to 35%.
      The above is not 100% correct for all players in general, but applies to many PokerVIP players. Going forward their rewards will mostly be based on the Real Player Value (RPV). This makes it almost impossible for players to estimate their return from those VIP rewards.

      If you signed up to any iPoker partner room via PokerStrategy.com, you don't have to be worried about this at all. As a PokerStrategy.com player you will continue to earn VIP points based on your gross rake and not based on RPV. These VIP points can be used as normal in the VIP shops of our partner rooms. As of now, we haven't been informed by our partner rooms that their loyalty programs will be adjusted on February 1st, when the new rake allocation system for iPoker rooms will kick in.

      Since the decision how to adapt VIP systems further down the line lies with the poker room, PokerStrategy.com can't say what will change in the future.

      Furthermore, as 50% of our rake is based upon the source base rake that the amount of strategy points we receive in rake races will not be the true figure because it will vary by the amount we win/lose.
      As stated above, StrategyPoints will not be based on RPV, but on the actual rake or tournament fee you paid. Exclusive PokerStrategy.com promotions e.g. Top100 promotion is based on StrategyPoints and will therefore also not take RPV into account.

      This is totally opposite to what Pokerstrategy stated when the plans were first publicised. JoeNote (Headadmin of Pokerstrategy) stated that:

      "As stated, every player continues to earn VIP points based on the weighted contributed, regardless of what the player value is in the end. It stays fully transparent, unlike Essence."
      I hope the above makes things clearer and as I previously said, the changes are not directly affecting players. Unlike under the "Essence"-system you still know $1 rake will earn you e.g. 5 SP on William Hill. The same is true for the VIP points, where you will still get e.g. 34 William Hill Points for every 1€ rake or fee.
      Only poker rooms and affiliates are directly affected by those changes.

      Best regards,
      Joerg
    • adeee3
      adeee3
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2009 Posts: 377
      Originally posted by JoeNote
      1. Nothing has changed in regards to how rake or fees are collected
      2. There is no rake increase on iPoker
      What are you talking about?!
      What changes by implementing the new rake system?

      The new method calculates rake in two parts:

      * 50% is calculated based on the current Weighted Contributed system
      * 50% is attributed to the original source of the rake i.e. depositing player the rake has come from. Otherwise referred to as 'SBR' or Source Based Rake.


      Lets talk about someone who has flat rakeback. Is it true that a winning player receives less rakeback than a loosing player?
    • JoeNote
      JoeNote
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 21.02.2007 Posts: 568
      Hi adeee3,

      There are two aspects that are not to be mixed up:

      1. Method how rake is taken from tables
      2. Method how rake is distributed between poker rooms on a poker network

      In the past "1." and "2." were the same. Only "2." is changing and therefore the revenue for the individual poker room will be different, while the overall amount of rake and fees on a network level is still the same. To generalize it you can say: "A poker room with a lot of sharks will see less revenue than before and a poker room with a lot of recreational players will earn more than before."

      The new rake attribution formula between poker rooms consists of the two parts you quoted and this is correct.

      Lets talk about someone who has flat rakeback. Is it true that a winning player receives less rakeback than a loosing player?
      This depends if the flat rakeback deal continues to be based on gross rake, as it was in the past, or, more likely scenario, on RPV.
      If the latter, than you are right. A winning player would receive less rakeback in comparison to what he would receive, if the deal was still based on gross rake.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      It's only a matter of time before this cost to poker rooms is passed on to players.

      If ipoker and other sites don't want profitable players, why don't they quit poker and just offer casino games? Ridiculous... Imagine if a bookie said, 'look you've won too much this month, sorry but I'm going to have to take 20% of your winnings back'.

      The combination of unbeatable games due to rake, casino games sold as poker (i.e. spin & go) shows complete disrespect for customers. Everyone seems intent on killing off the biggest drawcard poker has over other activities (the dream of being a profitable player). No wonder people would rather gamble on sports, play call of duty or go out.
    • Jaikse
      Jaikse
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2015 Posts: 16
      Could we have some maths or real numbers of a winning regular with the old and the new system : how much he will rake ? And how much he could rakeback?
      And I can't undesrtand how the new system could works..
    • Post removed

    • adeee3
      adeee3
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.05.2009 Posts: 377

      50% is calculated based on the current Weighted Contributed system = 50% of what I currently get
      *50% is attributed to the original source of the rake i.e. depositing player the rake has come from. = 0%, cos I genuinely don't rmb the last time I deposited.

      If you did not deposit in the last 12 months+ at all, but continue to play, you are correct.
      *******************************************

      Ok, i have 55% flat RB at WH, so i rake for example 100e for period from monday to saturday. How much $ will i get on tuesday, day in week when i get my RB? Lets make it simple.
      This coming Tuesday, players will be paid for the period Monday - Sunday. Your rake from Sunday will be calculated using RPV, but all other rake from that week will be calculated using Weighted Contributed.

      Moving forward, you will receive 55% of your rake under the new rake method. As mentioned above this is a combination of the current WC method and source based rake. I cannot tell you exactly what this number will be, but it cannot possibly be less than €27.50.

      If we are being realistic and you are winning slightly, I expect you to take between around €40 - €47.50 each week, but it depends on when you deposited and whether your sourced deposit is being turned into rake / remains in the iPoker economy.
      ************************************
      You will never get a real number because you can never know what is going to happen with the money you lost to another player.
      The only certain thing is that you won't get less than 50% of what you got before this change.