Anyone else annoyed about the Bots on 888?

It is annoying but I don't think it only happens on 888. I have met players in other poker rooms who freely admit to using bots like HM2, PT etc. So many seem to use programs, calculators, or bots to assist their play now as they assume it gives them an edge or advantage. It is hard to think it will ever change within the on-line arena. I think it is a difference we have to accept between live poker and on-line play.

HM2 is a bot? You clearly miss a point. HM2 or PT4 is just a tracking software that keeps a log on your/opponents played hands. A bot imo is a cheat that plays for the owner.

In saying that it is annoying I don't see bots as a worry or big problem I find them easy enough to exploit. For example when playing against a person using HM2 or any other similar program which decides or greatly influences their decision process, once I realise their play is based largely on stats of historical moves I have made, I can change my style and make a move their software can never predict. In my opinion a human can play one hand at a time based on its unique merits or equity, whereas a program or bot can not play so intuitively it soley relies on past stats or historical data. Therefore it is easier for us to predict a person using such software than it is for them to predict us.

@ISIcomeISIgo
I am not sure how the OP defines "bot". In my opinion it is a program which simulates human activity. For example in poker, a program which calculates outs or odds, or influences, or aids, the decision the human makes. A program which influences the human decision may be termed a "bot" even though it does not over-ride the overall human input.

If you use HM2 are decisions you make during play ever affected or influenced by the software? Does it ever calculate odds or outs on your behalf?

But you do understand that a bot plays on his own? A poker bot is artificial intelligence and it uses different fixed strategies based on number of parameters. I need HM2 just to keep track of what my opponent is doing, because I play on multiple tables, but I don't make my decisions just on my stats (sometimes it is even bad when you don't have the required sample).

At lower limits are a lot more bots than NL50 +.

Some automated poker software can play without the attendance of the human owner. It would be hard to say that those programs are cheating as they do not influence the human owner in any way, every action they perform has been programmed by the owner, they do not make decisions on behalf of the owner/programmer nor do they influence him they simply carry out his instruction in his absence.

I think I understand the software you condemn I don't believe they use AI or fixed strategy, quite the opposite they carry out the instruction of the owner to the letter. They only represent the owner if you program one to open raise 5 2 UTG it will do so, they are only as good or as bad as the person who programs them and never make decisions on his behalf unlike other software.

I don't think it is wrong to use HM2 or similar and if you multitable I think it is almost necessary even if only as a memory aid or log, initially I was just trying to point out the differences between live and on-line poker to the OP, after all we can not multitable in live poker and if software can help us do that on-line it is a great benefit.

I have to agree with Hoagy.. I in the past to satisfy my curious nature, looked into a leading poker bot. Exactly that has been mentioned they are only driven by coding .. this can be edited to certain hands.. but that really is it.. even if you think you have a solid strategy .. this will never change and any half decent player grinding the tables especially at medium to high stakes will soon adapt their play to exploit this.... I for one never worry about bots running away for their 6 hours at a table.. as i know with a bit of attention (and yes possibly some HUD help) you soon figure out the gaps and change your game accordingly for that player.

this of course is purely my own opinion

kirane, I wouldn't be so sure if the bots belong to the poker site. Anyway, even the bought bots from the internet are ruining the games. It doesn't matter if you can beat it, exploit it some how if he is constantly winning money from the fish. Even by sitting there at your table this is so wrong, since instead of the bot, it might have been a juicy fish.

point taken adeee3, please dont get me wrong.. i wasn't suggesting i want any bots around at all.... especially in the place of some nice ripe fish

Originally posted by hoagy
Some automated poker software can play without the attendance of the human owner. It would be hard to say that those programs are cheating as they do not influence the human owner in any way, every action they perform has been programmed by the owner, they do not make decisions on behalf of the owner/programmer nor do they influence him they simply carry out his instruction in his absence.

I think I understand the software you condemn I don't believe they use AI or fixed strategy, quite the opposite they carry out the instruction of the owner to the letter. They only represent the owner if you program one to open raise 5 2 UTG it will do so, they are only as good or as bad as the person who programs them and never make decisions on his behalf unlike other software.

I don't think it is wrong to use HM2 or similar and if you multitable I think it is almost necessary even if only as a memory aid or log, initially I was just trying to point out the differences between live and on-line poker to the OP, after all we can not multitable in live poker and if software can help us do that on-line it is a great benefit.

Most bots arent programmed by their owner, arent affected by fatigue, tilt or mistakes. Its clear and obv cheating, and its clear and obv breaching the terms and conditions.

Originally posted by hoagy
Some automated poker software can play without the attendance of the human owner. It would be hard to say that those programs are cheating as they do not influence the human owner in any way, every action they perform has been programmed by the owner, they do not make decisions on behalf of the owner/programmer nor do they influence him they simply carry out his instruction in his absence.

I think I understand the software you condemn I don't believe they use AI or fixed strategy, quite the opposite they carry out the instruction of the owner to the letter. They only represent the owner if you program one to open raise 5 2 UTG it will do so, they are only as good or as bad as the person who programs them and never make decisions on his behalf unlike other software.

I don't think it is wrong to use HM2 or similar and if you multitable I think it is almost necessary even if only as a memory aid or log, initially I was just trying to point out the differences between live and on-line poker to the OP, after all we can not multitable in live poker and if software can help us do that on-line it is a great benefit.

This is so wrong on so many levels, bots are cheating on any way or form. bots don't get tilted or tired, they don't have to take a break, they do not misclick etc ... a retarded bot winnning at 0.5bb/100 playing 12 hours per day will win as much as 5 solid regs who dedicated themselves to learning this game, how is that fair?
Besides that, fish don't like playing with robots, I bet most of recreational players are never coming back to online poker if they find out how bot infested it is these days.

saying that bots are only as good or as bad as their programmers is far from the truth because nobody can play their A game 12 hours a day 365 days a year.
anything that ressembles to a bot should be banned and policed very strictly in the near future or the games are going to dry real quick, I don't play that much on 888 anymore, but there are bots at 50/100nl winning a shit ton of $$$, some of them got banned appearently but those you mentionned are still around last time I played. I suspected some other bots on 200/400 but I don't play that high anymore so I can't add much.
there is a thread somewhere on 2+2 about a LAG botring winning up to 10bb/100 on 50/100nl, I crush 50nl pretty hard on 888 and I don't win at 10bb/100 ffs. something should be done right away about those bot rings and it should be enforced constantly and strictly imo.


Edit: Here is the thread on 2+2 http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/bots-888poker-1455008/

I have met players in other poker rooms who freely admit to using bots like HM2, PT etc.

[ ] Bots.

Terms of Use differ from company to company but for the most part they are similar and clear in that they do not allow the use of any software which uses "Artificial Intelligence"

EG 1
“Assistance Programs” means any artificial intelligence including, without limitation, ‘robots’ and/or any other computer generated program used to interact with the Software in AID or in place of a player.

EG 2
Software Aids: You are not allowed to use any software program or robot which, in our opinion, is endowed with artificial intelligence ("Software Aid") in connection with your use of the Services. We constantly review the use of the Services in order to detect the use of any Software Aid. In the event that we have reasonable suspicion that any Software Aid has been used, we reserve the right to take any action we see fit, including immediately blocking access to the Services to the offending user, terminating such user's account and seizing all monies held in such account.

booomm, you say. "Anything that ressembles to a bot should be banned and policed very strictly in the near future or the games are going to dry real quick"
A previous poster stated he likes to multitable and feels he needs to use software to AID him to do that. Do you think all players like that should be banned? Do you think there should be a ban on all poker software which AIDS a player or just some particular software programs?

When I joined 888 poker they allowed me to download a free poker software called "888poker coach", it uses artificial intelligence to AID me by calculating odds and outs in play faster than my brain can. Do you really think I should be banned for using it?

Originally posted by hoagy
Terms of Use differ from company to company but for the most part they are similar and clear in that they do not allow the use of any software which uses "Artificial Intelligence"

EG 1
“Assistance Programs” means any artificial intelligence including, without limitation, ‘robots’ and/or any other computer generated program used to interact with the Software in AID or in place of a player.

EG 2
Software Aids: You are not allowed to use any software program or robot which, in our opinion, is endowed with artificial intelligence ("Software Aid") in connection with your use of the Services. We constantly review the use of the Services in order to detect the use of any Software Aid. In the event that we have reasonable suspicion that any Software Aid has been used, we reserve the right to take any action we see fit, including immediately blocking access to the Services to the offending user, terminating such user's account and seizing all monies held in such account.

booomm, you say. "Anything that ressembles to a bot should be banned and policed very strictly in the near future or the games are going to dry real quick"
A previous poster stated he likes to multitable and feels he needs to use software to AID him to do that. Do you think all players like that should be banned? Do you think there should be a ban on all poker software which AIDS a player or just some particular software programs?

When I joined 888 poker they allowed me to download a free poker software called "888poker coach", it uses artificial intelligence to AID me by calculating odds and outs in play faster than my brain can. Do you really think I should be banned for using it?

Please stop it with your nonsense, HUDs and bots are two different things, any winning player knows that. I don't intend to be rude, but if you think huds, bots and "888poker coach" are the same thing, you know nothing about what you are talking about. HEM/PT dosen't take any decisions on the behalf of the players, it gives you statistics to interpret, that you probably can work out with a pen and paper, it would just take you an absurd amount of time. Now you get someone 3betting 15% BB vs OTB for example, you might decide that vilain is 3b a linear range (somehow) while in reality his range is polarized. A good player will notice that pretty quickly and start adjusting, while a poor player will go with his initial assumption and keep losing money, you see this all the time and this is just a simple limited example. 99% of regs are using huds, yet only a few win at 5bb/100+ at low-mid stakes: using a hud is a skill in itself.
You could argue that huds are bad for poker ecology since the recreational players go broke faster and they never come back, but saying that huds are the same as bots is just wrong, they both aid regs to win at a better rate, but there is a big difference between "tools of the business" (player poker for a living is kinda of a business after all) and blatant cheating (bots in case you didn't guess).
and since you consider any software aid the same as bots (therefore should be banned) maybe you should quit online poker since a "free poker software" wich is the poker client you are playing on, makes checking, calling and betting easier and faster than "real life poker".


This has been discussed a million times before, maybe a mod coud move this HUD discussion into a seperate thread? a part from being pointless, we are getting way offtopic here, this thread is supposed to be about bots.

Hi Booomm, I'm not saying that any poker software should be banned at all, was it not you who said. "Anything that ressembles to a bot should be banned and policed very strictly in the near future or the games are going to dry real quick"

I was just wondering which software you thought should be allowed and which not.

Nevertheless our opinions can not change the facts, current conditions of the terms of use of the services prevent us from using ANY software or programs which use any form of artificial intelligence, they do not distinguish between particular brands or types of software.

Originally posted by hoagy
Hi Booomm, I'm not saying that any poker software should be banned at all, was it not you who said. "Anything that ressembles to a bot should be banned and policed very strictly in the near future or the games are going to dry real quick"

I was just wondering which software you thought should be allowed and which not.

Nevertheless our opinions can not change the facts, current conditions of the terms of use of the services prevent us from using ANY software or programs which use any form of artificial intelligence, they do not distinguish between particular brands or types of software.

dude it feels like you are arguing for the sole sake of arguing, my whole point is that huds are very different from bots, therefore huds shouldn't be banned; feel free to believe in what you want, matter of fact is, bots and huds are two different things. and no, current T&C dosent ban huds, you can ask most sites for their list of allowed softwares, I'll bet half my networth that you'll find HEM and PT4 along with other softwares.

EDIT: as a matter of fact, here is the list of allowed softwares/tools on stars
http://www.toolspoker.com/pokerstars/pokerstars-allowed-poker-tools/
I guess I rest my case on this one, I hope we can get back on topic now.

You are correct about Pokerstars their TOS do differ from many other poker rooms, and they give comprehensive guidelines in their FAQ section on what software is allowed and what is not. Do you think other poker rooms should be similar?

5.5 AUTOMATIC PLAYERS (BOTS). The use of artificial intelligence including, without limitation, "robots" is strictly forbidden in connection with the Service. All actions taken in relation to the Service by a User must be executed personally by players through the user interface accessible by use of the Software.

http://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/prohibited/

But to get this thread back on topic I would suggest this excellent article as it relates to 888poker and is published in the official 888poker magazine.

http://www.888poker.com/poker-magazine/poker-articles/play-poker-against-a-computer.htm

Bot4: MAMAR5