when to cbet flop thin OOP

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Hi,

      We have OOP in general TPWK which doesnt need much protection (example J8s on Jc 6c 3s)
      On flop when should be cbet thin OOP?
      I would say, vs villians that:

      1) defend too much on flop by calling (it sucks if they raise wide)
      2) check back flop too frequently, which means we give them free card (but at least they cbet value hands and have weak range in that case, so I am not sure if in that case it is still better to check flop) ?
  • 7 replies
    • awesomeo
      awesomeo
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 303
      First thing that comes to mind is how do we aproach the problem - are we thinking about our range and how to balance cbets and checks or just how to take max exploit line vs certain stats of villain. Because if it is the first I checks that hand as default play and it would be one of my strongest checking hands.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Since I mentioned different categories of players (calls too wide, or checks back too often) then it makes only sense to analyse
      exploitative what is max EV line vs such players who dont player perfect poker which is in reality the case.
      gto-wise it is also not clear what line is the best, depends on ranges. here I didnt assume ranges, but single hand.
    • ZeDawning
      ZeDawning
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2011 Posts: 204
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      Hi,

      We have OOP in general TPWK which doesnt need much protection (example J8s on Jc 6c 3s)
      On flop when should be cbet thin OOP?
      I would say, vs villians that:

      1) defend too much on flop by calling (it sucks if they raise wide)
      2) check back flop too frequently, which means we give them free card (but at least they cbet value hands and have weak range in that case, so I am not sure if in that case it is still better to check flop) ?
      3) Situations where you expect villains to call wider,
      Eg. K6 on K53r

      4) Paired dry flops i.e. where you are betting more bluff heavy and where villains cant raise enough. I expect ppl to call wider again and float a decent number of times too
      Eg, J7 on 733r
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,720
      Originally posted by ZeDawning
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      Hi,

      We have OOP in general TPWK which doesnt need much protection (example J8s on Jc 6c 3s)
      On flop when should be cbet thin OOP?
      I would say, vs villians that:

      1) defend too much on flop by calling (it sucks if they raise wide)
      2) check back flop too frequently, which means we give them free card (but at least they cbet value hands and have weak range in that case, so I am not sure if in that case it is still better to check flop) ?
      3) Situations where you expect villains to call wider,
      Eg. K6 on K53r

      4) Paired dry flops i.e. where you are betting more bluff heavy and where villains cant raise enough. I expect ppl to call wider again and float a decent number of times too
      Eg, J7 on 733r
      IT makes sense that villians could float wider on dry board because many regs cbet bluff heavy, but on the other hand, most of villians are folding too much on such board, because there are too many very low equity combos in their range, which can hardly be floatet +EV. And because villians are in average folding too much on dry boards, thats exactly the reason why villians cbet bluff heavy this board
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      too many facotrs in here if we want to look at this 'exploitively', at first glance I would look at f2cb flop, raise flop cbet and bet vs missed cbet, if he folds too much and stabs 35%+ I'm prob check calling . planning future streets is what's most important if we x/c flop imo, since there are a ton of ugly runouts for us, turn ag% and bet vs missed turn cbet should be taken into consideration, some other stats might be helpfull depending on vilain.
    • ZeDawning
      ZeDawning
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2011 Posts: 204
      Originally posted by mlatasrb
      IT makes sense that villians could float wider on dry board because many regs cbet bluff heavy, but on the other hand, most of villians are folding too much on such board, because there are too many very low equity combos in their range, which can hardly be floatet +EV. And because villians are in average folding too much on dry boards, thats exactly the reason why villians cbet bluff heavy this board
      If you are caller IP - and you know villain is CBing more bluff-heavy, then it makes sense that you would float more?
      Even hands w low equity can have decent backdoor equity which makes it better to defend more vs a bluff heavy range?

      Which is why Id rather VB thin here to take advantage of floats and Ahi calls + not be highly unbalanced w value and bluffs.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,720
      If you are caller IP - and you know villain is CBing more bluff-heavy, then it makes sense that you would float more?
      I am still not going to float e.g. 78o on K53r (in general low equity hands), and I dont think I am exploited if I fold hands that cant be floated +EV. off course, only if I know that villian will check turn so often and give up so often that i can float low equity hands. But since villain knows that it is dry board and that you think that he is bluff heavy with cbet, then he might decide to 2nd barrel turn also bluff heavy? and his flop cbet bluffs have nice FE + equity vs your wide low equity range from flop (e.g. bluffs as JTo).