cbetF%

    • faktor1
      faktor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      Why our cbetF% needs to be so high in order to win? Is it possible to be more balanced like on the other streets?

      and can we exploit 100%cbetflop if villain is perfectly balanced on turn and river?
  • 21 replies
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      100% is too much. It basically tries to exploit people folding too much on the flop.

      Yes, standard way to exploit 100% c-bet is to always check-raise for value on the flop, never donk.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      100% is too much. It basically tries to exploit people folding too much on the flop.

      Yes, standard way to exploit 100% c-bet is to always check-raise for value on the flop, never donk.
      So, vs a range that's super heavy towards bluffs, you are suggesting to always checkraise for value??? Wuuuuuuuuut

      :why:
    • faktor1
      faktor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      In BvB when we are on BB and just called preflop, we expect sb to bet 100% of the time. My question is why here almost every player cbets 100% and not trying to be balanced? And if we want to explot that what's the right way to deviate from gto? How does that effect on our checkraising range, our folding range?
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      100% is too much. It basically tries to exploit people folding too much on the flop.

      Yes, standard way to exploit 100% c-bet is to always check-raise for value on the flop, never donk.
      So, vs a range that's super heavy towards bluffs, you are suggesting to always checkraise for value??? Wuuuuuuuuut

      :why:
      This is fixed limit, you know. You check-raise your value hands on flop to extract maximum value. Waiting until turn just risks a check-back (because he is bluff heavy) when you don't want to see that.

      Pretty standard (and good vs a 100% c-bettor). It is also the reason many players don't 3-bet preflop in BB ever heads up. They know they'll get in a check-raise on the flop anyway.

      EDIT: Of course, you don't donk your bluffs either (you check-raise them) unless the opponent is really incapable of seeing what's going on. This is what you could find in most beginners advice ALONG with the recommendation of c-betting 100%, at least until very recently. The whole strategy builds on the theory that most people fold too much to c-bets. It was probably very true a couple of years back. It is more questionable now, and probably wrong at higher limits.
    • faktor1
      faktor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      But again i didnt understand if we want to exploit 100% cbetingF, except to c/r more, do we have to make adjustments for example in our folding range? Or the c/r range is enough?:D
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      Didn't say c/r more than you do. My point is that not donking anything you are already exploiting the 100% c-bet. Likewise for not 3-betting heads up when in the BB (or not capping OOP) preflop if you happen to play that way. Sure, there must be ways to fine-tune, taking bluffs further perhaps (do they never fold flop right away to a c/r? -> their turn range is weak), but the things I mentioned constitute a start.

      There is one robot around, forgot which one (not the Ceph, haven't played it yet) that you absolutely must (IMO) both 3-bet from the BB and also donk flop against. Same thing goes for good players and too passive players.
    • noraflora
      noraflora
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      Joined: 25.10.2012 Posts: 10
      100% c-bet just means that whatever his range is preflop he is betting with the whole range on any flop regardless of his equity or the texture of the flop.

      Regarding exploiting this fact you can go really in depth but basically you can always C/R your value range since you expect him to bet 100% , depending on the player and his range you can include more or less draws in your C/R range or pure bluffs if he folds too much. Another option is also floating/peeling wider if his range is wide and also if he gives up on turn or lets you see river cards for free and how tight he calls etc.

      Btw. reason for betting 100% on the flop in heads-up spot is that if u get a fold only 1/3 of time the bet is immediately profitable.
    • faktor1
      faktor1
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      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      Yes, i agree with you, but my point is to exploit that leak as much as you can. And what other changes you have to make except not donking anything?
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      You probably wrote that just in time to miss noraflora's reply. I think there is some good stuff there.
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,804
      Originally posted by noraflora
      reason for betting 100% on the flop in heads-up spot is that if u get a fold only 1/3 of time the bet is immediately profitable.
      so why isn't it a good strategy to donk 100%? you only need a fold 1/3 of the time..
    • noraflora
      noraflora
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      Joined: 25.10.2012 Posts: 10
      Well i was talking about a spot where u raise preflop and you have a position and u face a check.

      About your question if you donk 100% you don't get value from his fixed 100% c-bet so when you bet into preflop raiser you fold out the weakest part of his range and you get less value with your good hands and you can also isolate yourself against a tighter range that continues versus your donk.

      Also it's pretty hard to incorporate a balanced donk and C/R strategy together and i think its not actually required to beat most of the limits.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 2,094
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      Originally posted by noraflora
      reason for betting 100% on the flop in heads-up spot is that if u get a fold only 1/3 of time the bet is immediately profitable.
      so why isn't it a good strategy to donk 100%? you only need a fold 1/3 of the time..
      Is this really a question ? BTW its not 1/3, because OTF there are 4.5 SB-s in the pot (1:2 blindstructure) and 1 SB goes in to take it down, so that's 1/5.5=18.1818...%

      And it's not necessarily auto profitable if someone folds more that that. Just think on if someone folds trash hands, which wouldn't win the pot (frequently enough) anyway. ..
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      Don't think you got the gist of the skwerl's "question" there kav.
    • noraflora
      noraflora
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      Joined: 25.10.2012 Posts: 10
      Oh yea i had that 1/3 number stuck in my brain , its when someone limps and you bet into him, my bad :)
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      So this is a question on the topic on how to further exploit the 100% c-bet.

      It is clear that we can't check-fold flop more than those 18.18...%, or else the opponent does auto-profit. (Yes, that is the definition of auto-profit kav. It is not necessarily the MOST profit obtainable, but it is auto-profit as usually defined.) So we fold less. Knowing that we will never be able to see the flop and turn for just one small bet, this should affect the preflop calling range. The tightness of the preflop raiser should determine the size of the preflop calling range, but the c-betting pattern should affect the mix of hands we play.

      Right?

      If right, how?
      If wrong, why?
    • faktor1
      faktor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      So we fold less.
      But if villain has a perfectly balanced range on the turn when he cbets 100%flop, i think we have to fold more on the flop, because he will have a higher cbet turn than normal and we have to fold more.

      If he has the same cbet%turn like a player whos cbet%flop is lower, then i think we should call more, because his cbetturn range wont be balanced and in his checkrange he will have more weak hands, so we will win sometimes SD with our bottom range.

      What i wrote above, im not sure if its right, so dont laugh much:f_biggrin:
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      See next post, blundered with the confusing editor when updating.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,449
      Rethink!

      If villain has an auto-profitable c-bet, then he should make it. Let me be more clear about what auto-profit is. If you fold "too much" (as precisely defined by the pot odds) and then even if he shuts down completely (donk folds in position on the turn while spiking nuts) he will still win in the long run, you lose. This is not debatable. There is no "if" and "but" here.

      This is (only) one of the reasons I try to keep kavboj from his private interpretations (usually misunderstandings) of terminology away from these forums. You cannot fight auto-profitable c-bets by folding as kavboj might suggest here.
    • faktor1
      faktor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 1,102
      Yes, i was just thinking on this, but i got confused may be because i missunderstood you in this thread Link Text... , when you said that we have to fold more on flop, i thought that we have to fold more than the pot odds are defining.
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