profit at micros without maths?

    • THEDEATHSTRIKER
      THEDEATHSTRIKER
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2008 Posts: 37
      Do you think it is possible for a player to play a very basic NL Holdem ring game strategy and turn a profit without applying odds and outs post flop? For those who know the startig hand strategy, understand the imortance of position, grasp and understand the concept of odds and outs, but struggle to perform the calculations whilst playing. Your thoughts? Also do you think a player who has never been very fast at calculations has an honest or realistic chance of getting "game fast" at calculation?? If so what is the best way to practice/study? Thanks.
  • 14 replies
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Most odds and outs situations occur so often that you can just memorize them. eg open ended straight draw is 8 outs, gutshot is 4 etc.

      Software like StarsHelper can even show you the pot odds and % needed to call,
    • THEDEATHSTRIKER
      THEDEATHSTRIKER
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2008 Posts: 37
      Originally posted by metza
      Most odds and outs situations occur so often that you can just memorize them. eg open ended straight draw is 8 outs, gutshot is 4 etc.

      Software like StarsHelper can even show you the pot odds and % needed to call,
      Thanks for the reply. Cool picture of Durr ha ha. Yeah Ican do the maths after usually but struggle mid hand if I need to discount outs for example. Guess it is just percieverance and practice needed. Still would like an answer to the no math strategy question from someone please.
    • Klabautermann
      Klabautermann
      Global
      Joined: 16.02.2013 Posts: 1,760
      I don't know if you can make decent winnings without odds and outs but you should try to understand that stuff. if your head calculation skills are bad then use the windows calculator to calculate your pot odds.

      Im a micro mass table player (I play 24 tables most of the time) and I use also often the windows calculator to calculate my pot odds even while I play ^^ that's sounds maybe funny but it's the truth my head calculation skills are bad :-(

      And how metza said already you can memorize the required odds most of the time go in the strategy article section here and then click on poker basics and check out the odds/outs chart. In the beginning it's maybe not so easy but you should practice that stuff.
    • THEDEATHSTRIKER
      THEDEATHSTRIKER
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2008 Posts: 37
      Originally posted by Klabautermann
      I don't know if you can make decent winnings without odds and outs but you should try to understand that stuff. if your head calculation skills are bad then use the windows calculator to calculate your pot odds.

      Im a micro mass table player (I play 24 tables most of the time) and I use also often the windows calculator to calculate my pot odds even while I play ^^ that's sounds maybe funny but it's the truth my head calculation skills are bad :-(

      And how metza said already you can memorize the required odds most of the time go in the strategy article section here and then click on poker basics and check out the odds/outs chart. In the beginning it's maybe not so easy but you should practice that stuff.
      Yeah, I think what im going to try is a step by step aproach. Maybe get a pad and pen and deal down two hole cards and a flop and work out the outs, deal after deal for an hour a night until I feel I have internalised it more or less, then move on to calculating the odds, then onto pot odds and so on. Mabe make some flash cards with the type of draw on the front and the odds and outs on the back to test myself or with a friend. I admit to a half arsed approach to study over my years here. And I wonder why I dont improve?? Lol. Hard work and committment from this day forward!
    • Klabautermann
      Klabautermann
      Global
      Joined: 16.02.2013 Posts: 1,760
      If you need help with the math stuff you can give me ur Skype name if you want. I can give you also a simpel game plan that will work for the lowest limits.
      If you are interested then accept my friend request and send me your Skype name.
    • Treizee
      Treizee
      Black
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 1,104
      for sure you can beat it
      i dont know how to calculate odds and i am beating NL100
      and at maths i suck so bad that the only thing at poker i can count is profit :D
    • Klabautermann
      Klabautermann
      Global
      Joined: 16.02.2013 Posts: 1,760
      Originally posted by Treizee
      for sure you can beat it
      i dont know how to calculate odds and i am beating NL100
      and at maths i suck so bad that the only thing at poker i can count is profit :D
      But I guess u know how to calculate Pot Odds.

      Pot Odds are not the same like Odds.
    • NothingIsForSho
      NothingIsForSho
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2014 Posts: 378
      Some of the best poker players in the world don't know basic odds math. Even Phil Ivey has been known to make brain farts on betting odds if you just watch High Stakes Poker
    • Treizee
      Treizee
      Black
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 1,104
      no i dont know how to count pot odds i am not sure what is it i am a big multitabler so even if i knew how to do it i wouldnt have enough time to calculate it but i always know how much outs i have :f_cool:
      some players are just making low stakes too complicated :)
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Keep these rules of thumb in mind:

      facing a half pot bet you need 25% chance to win
      facing a full pot bet you need 33% chance to win
      Facing a bet of anywhere between those two (most cases) you need ~30% chance to win
      Rarely will you be able to calculate your chances of winning to within 5% accuracy so just keep these things in mind and you don't need to really calculate anything in game.


      Next is your odds of drawing, which is only a small part of the story but it is still important:
      number of outs * 2 = chance of hitting on the next street.
      number of outs * 4 = chance of hitting on either the turn or the river.

      You rarely get odds to draw to hands like an OESD or a FD, but you then consider implied odds which is hard to calculate both in-game and away from the tables. This just comes with experience in most situations, but don't overvalue it: consider how obvious your draw is - bad players love to shut down when an obvious draw comes in because they have MUBS.

      It's nice to sit there and learn to calculate things perfectly but that is practically useless if you spend so much effort in game doing these calculations by the time you even get on to making your actual decision you've tanked down and have 1 second to act. Just simplify it.
    • Owl64
      Owl64
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 96
      Short answer - you can.

      Longer one - it's as simple as multiplication and you will win more.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      just believe man
    • aymanas
      aymanas
      Basic
      Joined: 10.05.2015 Posts: 4
      if you believe you can!
    • NothingIsForSho
      NothingIsForSho
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2014 Posts: 378
      math is idiotic