W$WSF relation to other statistics

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I play regular tables on Pokerstars and I was looking into my W$WSF stat and couldn't figure out if its good or bad. I've also posted some other stats to give an idea.

      I table select, always have a what on my table and play about 9-12 tables. Lately I've been trying to fight more for post flop pots and have seen my W$WSF rise from 39 to 43. Anyway here are some stats for a 25k sample.

      Stats for last 25k hands at NL 10

      VPIP:22.3
      PFR:17.6
      3-bet:5.26
      Flop C-Bet%:53
      Flop C-Bet success:51.1
      Turn C-Bet%:64.5
      WTSD:23.0
      W$SD:56.5
      W$WSF:40.5
      W$WSF Rating: 0.91


      I understand that my flop cbet% is a bit low and my flop c-bet success seems to be high. Turn c-bet is also high, WTSD is low and W$SD is high. Does that mean my W$WSF is low? cause maybe if I start fighting for post flop spots more and tweak some plays here or there I could maybe see a trend of my c-bet% getting higher, cbet success getting lower.

      Or keeping W$SD in mind is my W$WSF ok?

      Also I wanted to know opinions on this.

      Say I normally cbet 2/3 on flop then I need my cbets to work about 40% of the times so should my cbet success% be close to 40% and 51% is clearly high and I should thrown in more bluffs which will in effect make my cbet% go up and cbet success go down? Or should I not bother about that at NL 10?

      I am not trying to model my game around one stat, I'm just trying to find out if there is a leak/trend of passiveness thats unprofitable based on these stats I mentioned.
  • 10 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      yeah, your evaluation is right. you're a postflop nit
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      How much should W$WSF be?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      definitely at least 50 playing nl10 with your vpip
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Ok looked into some data. I checked the opponents tab on HM2 , of the biggest winners that I got, I'm listing W$WSF for top 10 on my stake.

      41.5
      38.1
      41.9
      42.8
      40.3
      51
      43.5
      48.1
      47.7
      43.4

      Mean 43.83
      Median 43.1
      Max 51
      Min 38.1

      The numbers are for highest profit from highest to lowest and I got big samples on all these guys.

      Tom, maybe 50 at least is a bit high?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      so what's the winrate and sample? i did crush nl10 pretty hard myself (>10BB/100 over 100k hands) and my opinion is that <50 wwsf for 22 vpip means missing out on a fuckton of autoprofit spots. however, i won't argue about this
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Could you please share some of your other stats to go along with the W$WSF that could give me an idea of what it would look like? As in how the relation is between your W$WSF with other stats.

      Thanks.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      well i rebuilt my nl10 database just for you. some basics

      vpip/pfr/3b 30/25/8
      wtsd/w$sd/wwsf 27/56/50
      cbet f/t/r 65/50/52
      success f/t/r 42/35/47
      f3b/f4b 77/70
      102k hands, 12.9 BB/100 all-in adjusted

      i was pretty bad compared to nowadays, so i guess it would be interesting to see how i would do now. in particular i would ramp up the 3betting and fold less to preflop reraises :f_biggrin:
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Thanks man, that info really helps. I appreciate the effort you put in to get it out.

      Were you playing zoom? If you were playing regular were you playing against a lot of fish and table selecting?

      I ask because just yesterday I was going through my hands in HM2 where I filtered for spots where I could have 3-bet. In most of the cases that I didn't 3-bet, it was because the opponent raising was a big fish with a low fold to 3-bet that I just can't start 3-betting trash hands against. Oh and I sit on tables only if I can have position on them so these guys have mad VPIPs and PFRs and if I 3-bet I'm mostly doing that with them.

      Taking that forward I looked at my postflop spots too over the last few days. Sure I missed some spots where I could have attacked a pot that nobody was interested in and called flop c-bets on very dry boards to float cause the opponent would just bet any 2 on that flop. Things like these could surely pull up my W$WSF and I'm already working on them.

      However there are many other spots where I'm postflop against a fish, where I can't do much than play straight up which obviously makes my W$SD high and WTSD low. Now I suspect I could be making a mistake here and being too nitty against fish trying to avoid variance and that I should see some showdowns with okayish pairs against big fish for added value. Just writing this is actually clearing things up. :)

      Overall nice stats though, a LAG playing style like your coach.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM always :f_biggrin:

      most of these hands (like 80%+) were actually before the coachings so that's what i mean by pretty terrible. :f_biggrin: it was cool that we actually shared a lot of "philosophy" before we even started
    • Hesticus
      Hesticus
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 2,287
      Hi Maheepsangari,

      Your stats look fine to me as well. However, indeed as you said, also look to the player when looking to your stats because the decisions are not always justifiable on just your own.

      For example, if a player folds to 3bets only 5-10% of the time, you can always 3bet profitably with blocking hands such as A9+ and KJ+. Their range is so wide, you can easily make up your equity with your re-raise.

      Hope this helps, otherwise I have to consult my book to justify this with mathematics ;)