SnG and BR mangement

    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      Strategy tells us to have 30 buy-ins, but I use 40, just to be sure.

      I usually play 4 SnG's at a time and I don't start new ones untill all 4 are finished. I currently have 120$ on Full Tilt and they have 2$ and 5$ SnG's.
      For 5$ SnG's i'd like to have at least 200$
      I'd like to move up limits but do not have enough $ yet and I don't want to be at 2$ much longer because progress is kinda slow.
      If I, let's say, enter two 2$ SnG's and two 5$ SnG's, i'ts 2*2$+2*5$=14$
      14$/4=3,5$... So it's 3,5$ on average (without rake)

      Can I treat this like I'm playing 3,5$ SnG's?
      That way I have approximately 40 buy ins...

      I also think that I have a slight "problem" when I reach heads-up stage. There is no article in strategy section about HU play. I like to play small pots and outplay those microlimit fishes on the flop...But, what to do when blinds are 200/400 and I have 5000 and the opponent 8500 and he minraises EVERY freakin pot. I can't call with trash hands and it seems to me that every time I push they have a better hand...If i push with A9, they have AJ..if I push K high they have PP's and so on...Or maybe it just seems that way...

      HU article would help I think :)
  • 22 replies
    • rowzee
      rowzee
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2008 Posts: 151
      I will leave the question about $3.5 "artifical" SNG's to somebody more experienced. But I wonder why do you play only 4 SNG's at a time and wait until they all finish before starting new ones? It shouldn't be more difficult to play more tables and play them in succession, that way you would maximise your hourly rate and increase your bankroll faster. I myself am very comfortable playing 6 tables at a time (maximum number my monitor can support without overlap) and start a new one once I bust out of any one of them, it isn't difficult and I don't seriously believe that it might somehow hurt your regular game.

      As for HU play, once again I'm no expert and I'm frequently wondering how should I play when deepstacked. If, however, you're effective stack HU is 10BB or less, you might want to read up on SAGE (just Google it since you're not Silver yet and don't have access to the article).
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Adding two 5$ SNGs isn't a problem IMO if you feel you can handle them. I think the level of play there is pretty much the same as with the 2$ so you should be able to beat them, too. Be prepared to move down to 2$ or even 1$ if the variance strikes, though! Because even though it is true that you can increase your BR faster while playing the 5$ it is also obviously true that you can also lose way more way faster.
      To improve your heads up game I suggest you watch coachings. They really helped me with this. Also try the ICM trainer to see which hands are profitable to push when your opponent also uses ICM. You will have to adapt and push tighter than that but it should give you a general idea..
      Also to give some feedback on the exaples you gave, it is always ok to push any ace and even most kings should be fine. They will have to either fold very often on call you with a worse hand.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Tbh stick to 2$, mixing limits is not good idea and on 2$ you are not worried about variation that much. If your progress seems slow, play more sngs (play them one after other, don't play in sets) and find your leaks because on those 1-2$ sngs roi can be incredibly high.

      As for HU play, remember that if he is minraising eveyr single hand, then he don't have much of a hand himself. Calling him with trash is just ok, just mind how you will play the flop.
      I suggest you to read headsup part from harrington on holdem, this will explain it to you quite well, because in HU it's worth to play almost any hand.
    • Harold1
      Harold1
      Global
      Joined: 09.11.2008 Posts: 140
      I think 30 BI's is recommended for cash games and sng's is 50 -100 BI's.
      So I think your confusing the cash game BRM w/ sng which are not the same at all.
      php:
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      You think wrong, for sngs 30BI is enought.
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      Originally posted by Puciek
      You think wrong, for sngs 30BI is enought.
      Well it all depends how good you are and comfortable at one limit BUT yes recommendation is 50BI+. SNGs have more swings after you get into top5 is at the end a lot of gambling and only top3 payed so is possible you lose quite few in row.
    • NickParkes
      NickParkes
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 1,526
      SNGs are ver swingy.... you can expect to have -25BI downswings at least...

      The 30 BI rule is recommended for micro limits to maximise your progression... the most important factor here is being disciplined enough to move back down....

      As you progress higher be prepared to adapt a much more coservative BRM...

      I use 100BI as a rule... and I take shots at the next limit with 75BI... when I have proven myself on a limit I can play comfortably on that limit with 50 BI...

      ATM I'm grinding $11 sngs and taking shots at $22... biggest downswing at the $11 level so far has been -30 and I have had a good few more... all of them I have recovered from without having to drop down a level....

      I started the 100BI rule from when I advanced to the $5.50 games... I think that you will find that a lot of people stick to this, partivularly as you move higher and higher....

      As for your HU game there is the article on SAGE in the silver section of SNG articles... but most often SNG HU games are in push or fold mode... the best way to practice this and get a good feel for the ranges is to practice on the ICM trainer and set it to 2 players and just practice...

      Good luck and hope this helps...

      Nick
    • davidangel
      davidangel
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      This is from the basic SnG BRM

      Step 1: You will be playing tournaments up to $1.00
      Advance to step 2: with at least $72
      Move down: at the latest with $18

      Step 2: You will be playing tournaments up to $2.00
      Advance to step 3: with at least $165
      Move down to step 1: at the latest with $36

      Step 3: You will be playing tournaments up to $5.00
      Advance to step 4: with at least $330
      Move down to step 2: at the latest with $72

      Step 4: You will be playing tournaments up to $10.00
      Move down to step3: at the latest with $165

      You play on fulltilt, same as me, and you must get to the $5 level as soon as possible to maximize your winnings. Why? At $1 your fee = 25%, at $2 your fee = 12.5% and at $5+ your fee is 10% Mathematics will tell you that if you play 9 games you will bust 6 get a 3rd, a 2nd and a 1st for break-even. We use our skills to give us an edge to beat the odds and to get at bare minimum an extra 3rd place finish. However, if the extra 3rd place finish does not cover the fees progress will be painfully slow or even backwards. So on fulltilt I would only play $1 games if the roll was at $18 or less. (in 9 $1 games you pay $2.25 in fees but only win $1.8 for an extra 3rd place finish)
      As you move up the limits you will notice that typically, the blinds are higher when the bubble pops. This means you get less postflop play 3-way or HU as the game has come down to push or fold. SAGE can help you there. In addition at higher limits variance is due to being cold-decked more as opposed to the micro limits where really bad fish chum you out with terrible holdings. (ace rag can still beat your KK)
      Playing 4 tables as a set is good. You get a break, your blind levels stay close and you can get reads and take notes on the other players.
      cuxcux, you have 60BI for $2 games, but really only need 30BI. If you convert your "extra" $2 x 30BI into $5BI you get 12BI So ask yourself "do I have the mental capacity and testicular fortitude to attempt 3 sets of 4 games at the $5 level, and restart basically from scratch if I fail?" Think about how long you have been grinding the $2 games... are you a gambler? are you willing to do it again? will you cry?
      Personally, I do not see much difference in the skill levels of the chum at $5 or $2, so if you are crushing $2 maybe take a stab at $5, however, like luborc and NickParkes have said, be prepared to move down if variance strikes early.
      Happy chum hunting!
    • HoRRoR
      HoRRoR
      Black
      Joined: 11.02.2005 Posts: 10,656
      this mixing doenst go with brm :P

      just as a sidenote, i still even 40 is too less, but ok...

      just to make it more obv

      i got 300$ br (playing 50 buyins)
      i play 20 tabling (i can handle that, that not what we want to discuss)

      so can i play 19x 1$ and 1x 100$ sng?
      gives me an artificial buyin of ~6$ which fits with my roll


      rest should explain itself i hope 8)
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Haha your example is so silly :tongue:

      does not prove anything though. I usualy mix limits.. not only for BRM, also for traffic. The difference of skill in between (low) limits is usualy dismissable... so it's infact great for BRM :)

      Another advantage is that you can take "shots" at a higher limit when your bankroll is getting near.
      Say you have 75BI bankroll like myself... (40 is way to little imo.. not really the discussion though) I don't feel ready to 14table the 22$ limit once I reach 1500$ :)
    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      you have 60BI for $2 games, but really only need 30BI. If you convert your "extra" $2 x 30BI into $5BI you get 12BI


      thx for the advice, that's exactly what I'll do...
      don't know if I'll have enough time for 3 sets but i'll play at least 1 tonight and post results afterwards

      wish me good luck :)
    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      so, here's what happened

      #1


      Full Tilt Poker, $5 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 40/80 Blinds, 5 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      Hero (BTN): 1,602
      SB: 2,708
      BB: 2,925
      UTG: 1,375
      CO: 4,890

      Pre-Flop: (120) K:heart: A:heart: dealt to Hero (BTN)
      UTG folds, CO raises to 160, Hero raises to 600, 2 folds, CO raises to 4,890 and is All-In, Hero calls 1,002 and is All-In

      Flop: (3,324) T:spade: T:diamond: 3:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: (3,324) 5:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: (3,324) Q:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: 3,324 Pot (3,324 Rake)
      Hero showed K:heart: A:heart: and LOST (-1,602 NET)
      CO showed (two pair, Queens and Tens) and LOST (-1,602 NET)

      AK<KQ (I should have shoved PF)

      and this type of thing happen constantly, my ROI should be at least few percentages higher...


      #2

      Full Tilt Poker, $5 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 50/100 Blinds, 4 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      BB: 1,545
      UTG: 1,900
      BTN: 8,390
      Hero (SB): 1,665

      Pre-Flop: (150) A:diamond: K:diamond: dealt to Hero (SB)
      UTG folds, BTN calls 100, Hero raises to 1,665 and is All-In, BB calls 1,445 and is All-In, BTN folds

      Flop: (3,190) 8:spade: J:heart: T:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: (3,190) 9:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: (3,190) T:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: 3,190 Pot (3,190 Rake)
      BB showed (a straight, Queen high) and LOST (-1,545 NET)
      Hero showed A:diamond: K:diamond: and LOST (-1,545 NET)

      AK<QQ


      third one I pushed with A5 and called by A10, lost obv.

      #4

      Full Tilt Poker, $5 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 120/240 Blinds, 2 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      BB: 6,910
      Hero (SB): 6,590

      Pre-Flop: (360) K:diamond: A:diamond: dealt to Hero (SB)
      Hero raises to 720, BB calls 480

      Flop: (1,440) Q:diamond: 8:diamond: 4:heart: (2 Players)
      BB checks, Hero bets 960, BB raises to 6,190 and is All-In, Hero calls 4,910 and is All-In

      Turn: (13,180) 4:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: (13,180) 8:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: 13,180 Pot
      BB showed A:heart: 7:heart: (two pair, Eights and Fours) and WON 6,590 (+0 NET)
      Hero showed K:diamond: A:diamond: (two pair, Eights and Fours) and WON 6,590 (+0 NET)

      after this, smashed my keyboard a little, but eventually won, so I earned 0.50$ :)

      btw. I HATE AK :) (suited)
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      1st I would coldcall preflop or shove. Raising to 600 sucks because the stack/pot ratio is terrible. It's unplayable that way imo :)

      I would coldcall most of the time I think. Shoving is also OK.
    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      yeah, I know, but that doesn't change the fact that I lost on river to 3 outs...what if I pushed and he called, that wouldn't change the river card, or am I wrong? :) :)

      I have a nice one again :D needles to say river again
      I know I'm not a huge favorite, but pleeeeease next time give it to him on the flop, this hurts

      Full Tilt Poker, $2 + $0.25 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 80/160 Blinds, 2 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      Hero (BB): 7,995
      SB: 5,505

      Pre-Flop: (240) A:spade: 5:spade: dealt to Hero (BB)
      SB raises to 480, Hero raises to 1,440, SB raises to 5,505 and is All-In, Hero calls 4,065

      Flop: (11,010) 9:club: 2:spade: 4:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: (11,010) 6:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: (11,010) T:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: 11,010 Pot
      Hero showed A:spade: 5:spade: (Ace Ten high) and LOST (-5,505 NET)
      SB showed T:spade: K:heart: (a pair of Tens) and WON 11,010 (+5,505 NET):
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by cuxcux
      yeah, I know, but that doesn't change the fact that I lost on river to 3 outs...what if I pushed and he called, that wouldn't change the river card, or am I wrong? :) :)
      Stop playing poker right now, you are only orientet in result which is wrong.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      haha yea, bad attitude man :)

      For me the biggest challenge in poker is trying to make the optimal decision every time. If you care to much about results the standard downswings in sng's will drive you c-razy-o-doodle
    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      but it's frustrating losing 7 out of 10 times when i'm like 60-40 favorite....
      lol, i won't stop playing :)
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      no you made a mathematical mistake... you lose 4 out of 10 :D

      If your conclusions differ, increase the samplesize and by a calculator from your profit.
    • NickParkes
      NickParkes
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 1,526
      Reraising AK is a mistake IMO.... AK is a drawing hand... I lost a lot of chips reraising AK... Learn to let go of it!

      Raise AK 1st to act/ no raises before you...
      Cold call a raise... Cold call a reraise but expect a big PP unless you have a great read on your opponent... play accordingly on the flop....

      13 - 24 BB as above except you can push to 1 raise...

      Push or fold mode push AK happily, call with AK happily most of the time and forget about the results...

      AK is a nemesis hand for a lot of people... play it properly and it will work in your favour... when I push AK is my favourite hand to get called by cos I know my rags can beat it easily ;)

      Hope this helps... gl...

      Nick
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