is SNG play alone profitable?

    • RavForenzo
      RavForenzo
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      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 293
      I've tried to grind out the SNG's a couple of times, sticking strictly to the BRM and strategy, and try and play as perfect poker as possible. But still find myself tumbling down or at least sort of just hovering above a small profit.

      So my question is, do any guys on here make the kind of genuine profits you tend to see from cash games by just playing SNG's alone? I'm not talking multi tables either, just literally 10 max.

      I need some encouragement that it is worth it in the end! I'm not a beginner, so dont need advice, I just wanna hear other peoples experiences with SNG.
  • 19 replies
    • Duane317
      Duane317
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.12.2007 Posts: 76
      Sometimes it is profitable... most of the time it's not.
      That's just for me of course.

      I play $16 9-Player SnGs (turbo) at stars some months ago (now I don't like them anymore). I usually lose $50-$100 a day, but sometimes gain about $300-$400 when I'm lucky.

      So... yeah... I don't like SnGs because it is rare that you'll get stable profit. I prefer cash games.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      yup it's profitable.. It's swingy as hell tho...
    • rjacobs003
      rjacobs003
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      Joined: 07.01.2008 Posts: 45
      I think you need to give it a pretty big sample before evaluating. I'd say play 200 and then have a look at your winrate
    • RavForenzo
      RavForenzo
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      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 293
      i have done mate, ive played around 600 i think, but i have deviated during that time into other things, so not sure what my exact winrate is now cus the money has mixed.

      when i was keeping track though, i was pretty much just breaking even, and when i hit a lot and moved up in dollars, in kicked the swings and i was right back to where i started again! i dont necessarily think i play terribly, for the most part if i sit and just play and focus on 1 or 2, i can come ITM a high percentage of the time. im just not great at playing 4 or 5 in one go, so my hourly rate is poor.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi guys,

      Ofcourse its profitable. Why wouldn't it be?

      SnG's also aren't as swingy as people make out. If you play solid poker, you will have a pretty stable winrate, and not so many bad swings. People play far to many SnG's at a time, which just adds hugely to the variance.

      If your not a beginner (I dunno), then why would you need re-assurance? 99% of the people on these forums are beginners (me included). If your not making progress, then post hands, read articles, visit coachings, watch video's, etc......

      Regards,
      Stiev
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      I find them to be extremely profitable. I have made about 1k$ in 1k tournaments... and that was while climbing through limits. I now play the 11$ 10max seaters, and I'm pretty sure I'll maintain a ROI of 15-20% there (currently at 40+%, but on a small samplesize).

      Just keep on working on your game... I can assure you they can be played profitable :)
    • RavForenzo
      RavForenzo
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      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 293
      Originally posted by cannell555

      If your not a beginner (I dunno), then why would you need re-assurance?
      Stiev
      everyone needs a bit of gentle encouragement and listening to other people's success help, when things aren't going your way. I'm sure you know what I mean?

      I'm gonna try and play less at a time, I think this is a major leak in my game.
    • extpan
      extpan
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      Joined: 17.11.2007 Posts: 289
      i play sng on stars 3$ and im ATM in 7 of 10 game:)
    • Samo2
      Samo2
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      Joined: 01.02.2008 Posts: 69
      Hi, by my opinion they are profitable. I've played them on several poker rooms and at the beginning I had a lot of variance, mostly because i wasn't patiente enough and didn't have enough experience - my late game was really bad.
      After a short brake I returned to SNGs at 2$ buy-in and at the moment my results are:
      - ITM = 42%
      - ROI% = 38%

      I know sample is not high enough, just 52 games, but the results have little variance. Just to mention, my ITM results are:
      - 1st place = 9
      - 2nd place = 6
      - 3rd place = 8

      Work on your late game.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      I know sample is not high enough, just 52 games, but the results have little variance


      How can 52 games not have a lot of variance?.. lol :P
    • Drakhor
      Drakhor
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      Joined: 13.01.2008 Posts: 554
      Look at my signature. :D
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
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      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Every form of poker can be profitable if you play it right.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by Backcushion
      Every form of poker can be profitable if you play it right.
      not playmoney poker
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      Originally posted by Backcushion
      Every form of poker can be profitable if you play it right.
      not playmoney poker
      I disagree, cant you sell them play chips now? MADNESS!!
    • excelgeo
      excelgeo
      Silver
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,107
      i dont like sng's, they are not working for me, i prefer cash games.

      but i am sure that they can be profitable, no doubt
    • Samo2
      Samo2
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.02.2008 Posts: 69
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      I know sample is not high enough, just 52 games, but the results have little variance


      How can 52 games not have a lot of variance?.. lol :P
      Just lough, I don't care. :P

      Anyway, what I wanted to say is that you need some experience, because SNGs are very different from other forms of HE poker. I read a lot of articles on them, from PokerStrategy and elswhere, tried a lot of "sugestions" and now I'm pretty sure I know much or less what am I doing.

      I know that 52 SNGs are not a big sample, so I'll post here when I come to few hundred of them. And I hope i'll be able to laugh then, too. This morning I've played another 4 SNGs, finishing 5th, 4th and twice 1st, so my new statistic is:
      - ITM = 45%
      - ROI% = 44%
      - 1st place = 11
      - 2nd place = 6
      - 3rd place = 8

      As I mentioned already, if you want to be profitable you need to work on bubble game and late (ITM) game.

      Some suggestions:
      - especially in the low buy-in games you should leave fishes and maniacs to fight and kill eachother in the first 4 - 5 levels. I normaly don't bother playing anything else than top pocket cards (AA, KK, QQ, AK and AJs+, JJ from late position very carefuly). I don't agree with PokerStrategy pre-flop chart about calling middle and small pocket pairs or AXs here, because many times you'll be reised by somebody in later position or you won't get anything on the flop. This way you are loosing chips you're gona need for later game. Having doublestack at the beginning of SNG doesn't help a lot. If you succeed to get it, preserve the chips for bubble game
      - when the table comes to 5 or less players and/or your chipstack is <15 BB, then you start to play your real game.
      - there is nothing wrong having small chipstack - I've been a smallstack few times and went to ITM or even won the tournament. Use your observations, wait for good hand, have a little luck and you're ITM.
      - when you're ITM, play aggresive, but wise (smart). Don't let the oponnents push you arround. It's not a problem being smallstack ITM. If you are, go against second stack, leave the big stack alone - most times he will wait for you two to kill eachother. If you manage to get to heads-up, play any A and middle pair or above and push all-in. Yes, sometimes you will loose, but most times oponent will fold or will play with worst hand, having enough of your all-ins.
      - as you can see from my statistics, I have finished first most, then 3rd and then 2nd. I've read somewhere that this is the best practise to go, since the difference between 2nd and 3rd is just 10%, while between 3rd and 1st is 30%.

      That's my experience. Hope I've helped somehow. I know many will disagree with me, and I respect anybodys' oppinion. But as I said, I have played a lot of SNGs before, read and tried a lot of strategies and lost many SNGs. The strategy mentioned above works for me for now, hope it will work in the future, too.
    • miskokvo
      miskokvo
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      i love sng ... nice easy profit... up to maybe 30$ you dont need PT or etc.... especialy loves turbos ... you only act by position,cards,stage ... but in cash game you should always think much more ...
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      yea, sng is easy monay :D

      infact you earn money because your table is crowded with players wo do not know how to adapt to the rising blinds / are dimwitted lagtards
    • faz182
      faz182
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2008 Posts: 24
      Yes I believe sngs are profitable.

      If you find you can only play your top game in 2 sngs at a time, then just play 2.

      I recommend not worrying too much about hourly winrate at first. To begin with, just concentrate on playing great sng strategy. Post sample hands, watch the vids and attend coachings. By doing this you will be able to move up through the limits by constantly improving your game and following bankroll stategy.

      When you feel your game is good enough then you can think about playing more tables if needs be.


      Here is my prefereed sng stategy:

      1. Early stage, only play AA, KK, QQ, AK. I will normally call up to a 4 bb raise with any small-mid pocket pair here, and dont mind limping in early with them. With small pocket pairs, use your initiative and use implied odds.

      2. When there are 5 left or the bb is 10% of your stack, I open raise with any A, any suited K, any pair and any two cards 10 or over.

      3. When the bubble hits, if you are the big stack use your stack to really pressure ur opponents. If ur short (less than 14bb) be patient and look for a good spot to get your chips in. Fold equity is important here - you would much rather be raising all in than calling a raise.

      4. Final 3. Now you are itm youd rather come 3rd than 2nd. What i mean by this is that you play to win. Be prepared to take slight edges. Be careful here though overplaying AX, its too easy to be dominated, as A is a big part of your opps. all-in range here imo.

      5. Heads up - look for tendencies and exploit them. I tend to punish limps on the button (but im careful as this can mean a v. strong hand sometimes). Basically try and grind them down with your aggression. If you can take a leg out, theyll fall over eventually.

      Good luck