w34Z3l's HUD video

    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      I'm just working through this .... and working on my HUD.

      At 11:45, in relation to the Fold to 3Bet popup, there is the 4bet stat by position. I have found without problem "TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent ip" but cannot find "TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent OOP". There is a different stat - "TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent in blinds", but that's obviously something different.

      Can anyone guide me to where to find the OOP stat (in HM2)? Thanks
  • 15 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Hi Bruno,
      I don't have an answer, but thanks for alerting me to this video!

      I'll check later to see if I can find an answer.
      VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      OK, I paused the video when the Fold vs 3Bet popup was displayed.

      And you're right -- I cannot find the relevant stat.
      I'm also a bit confused, since the stats are labelled:
      :diamond:   TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent in blinds (4i)
      :diamond:   TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent ip (4o)

      The characters in brackets are the actual stats, and would seem to indicate the opposite of what the words mean.
      In the video, the IP stat is 3, and the OOP stat is 15, which totals 18, but the total 4Bet stat (higher up) is only 10.

      If you look at the two columns "IP" and "OOP" the 3 numbers in each column total 100, so I'm going to guess that the stats 4i and 4o will give these numbers.

      I don't have enough hands on any player on any room where I use HM2 to actually test this.

      Perhaps you do?

      Let us know.

      Also, a query to HM2 support might help. They're quite good.

      Cheers,
      VS
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      And you're right -- I cannot find the relevant stat.
      Great - glad its not just me :)

      Originally posted by VorpalF2FI'm also a bit confused, since the stats are labelled:
      :diamond:   TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent in blinds (4i)
      :diamond:   TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent ip (4o)

      The characters in brackets are the actual stats, and would seem to indicate the opposite of what the words mean.
      I hadn't noticed that - but you're right - the stat names don't seem to match the stat descriptions

      Originally posted by VorpalF2FIn the video, the IP stat is 3, and the OOP stat is 15, which totals 18, but the total 4Bet stat (higher up) is only 10.
      I don't think you should add the figures together, rather looked at a [weighted] average. So 3% IP 4Bet, 15% OOP 4bet leaves a 10% 3bet stat as reasonable (IMO). WHat you did lead me to do was add up the IP and OOP 4bets which come to 136 and compare that to the 4bet stat above, which also comes to 136. So the HUD in W34z3ls video look good to me from that perspective.

      Originally posted by VorpalF2FIf you look at the two columns "IP" and "OOP" the 3 numbers in each column total 100, so I'm going to guess that the stats 4i and 4o will give these numbers.

      I don't have enough hands on any player on any room where I use HM2 to actually test this.
      Just tested it on my stats in the hand replayer - if we switch them around then the columns add up to 100 - so I'm pretty confident the labels are the wrong way round in HM2 (and indeed, the label is wrong for the OOP stat?)
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      I've had the following response from HM2 support:

      The TOT 4bet vs 3bet from Opponent in blinds is the 4bet IP (you can see it when you hover over, it is 4i). It is vs the opponent in the blinds, thus you are in position.

      The TOT 4bet vs 3bet from opponent IP is the 4bet OOP (it shows 4o when you hover over). It is vs the opponent in position, thus you are out of position.
      So they are saying that the stats are correct.

      I'm quite tired at the moment, and cannot get my head around it, so will look at it tomorrow
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by 8runo
      I'm quite tired at the moment, and cannot get my head around it, so will look at it tomorrow
      OK, I get that the IP and OOP refer to YOUR relative position.

      As long as the Fold to 3Bet and Call 3Bet stats are the same we're set.


      VS
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      Ok - I can get the explanation in the cold light of day :) However it is poorly worded isn't it? (or is it just me?)

      Though I'm still struggling to get the relevance of the blinds in the description - If we're looking at "TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent in blinds (4i)" and "TOT 4Bet vs 3Bet from Opponent ip (4o)" then we're missing all the occasions an opponent is 4betting out of position, but not in the blinds aren't we?

      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      As long as the Fold to 3Bet and Call 3Bet stats are the same we're set.
      Just looking....... (typing as I look, so don't know which way it will go) ....

      My stats .....

      TOT Fold to 3Bet IP (F3i) = 54%
      TOT Call 3Bet IP (C3i) = 39%
      TOT 4bet v 3bet From Opponent in Blinds (4i) = 7%
      TOTAL: 54% + 39% + 7% = 100%

      TOT Fold to 3bet OOP (F3o) = 50%
      TOT Call 3Bet OOP (C3o) = 38%
      TOT 4bet v 3bet From Opponent ip (4o) = 12%
      TOTAL: 50% + 38% + 12% = 100%

      So there is a consistency there and it does seem to add up - though (at the risk of repeating myself) still don't get how the numbers are included for when I 4 bet, in position, against an opponent who is not in the blinds........
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Good morning, 8runo,
      I think I have it.
      The only way we can be in position vs a 3Bet is if the 3Bet comes from the blinds.

      If we're in CO (or earlier) and someone in later position 3Bets, we're OOP from then on.
      If they're in the blinds, though, then we're IP vs them.

      This can only happen if the 3Bet comes from the blinds -- the other earlier positions have folded, or made the initial raise. If they made the initial raise, then we are the ones 3Betting, and they're OOP vs us, and their stats will thus fall in the IP column -- we can never 4Bet in this situation, because we 3Bet.

      Like you it took me a bit to sort this out.

      From EP to BTN you can only be IP vs the 3Bet if the 3Bet comes from behind you, and the only positions behind you that can 3Bet are the blinds.

      Here's another way to look at it:
      :diamond:   1-Bet (blinds and limpers)
      :diamond:   2-Bet (open raise + all calls to the open raise )
      :diamond:   3-Bet (1st re-raise)
      :diamond:   4-Bet (re-re-raise)

      You can see that you can only make even or odd bets.
      The only players that can 3Bet OOP are the 1-Betters.
      For everyone else, they can 3Bet vs an open raise behind them -- they're then IP.

      Whew

      Cheers,
      VS
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      I didn't believe you.:f_eek:

      So I thought I'd get an example to show you.:f_biggrin:

      Now I believe you! :f_drink:

      Not quite got my head around it ... but I will do.....:f_thumbsup:
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      From EP to BTN you can only be IP vs the 3Bet if the 3Bet comes from behind you, and the only positions behind you that can 3Bet are the blinds.
      If I'd raised this hand, would it not be a 4bet in position against opponents not in the blinds? (To be honest, I've become a little confused about exactly what a 3bet/4bet is preflop - I thought I knew, but w34z3l had a different definition to me pre flop and I haven't totally rerevised my language properly yet)

      IPoker, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $2.17 (43.4 bb)
      BB: $2.07 (41.4 bb)
      UTG: $3.16 (63.2 bb)
      MP: $11.55 (231 bb)
      Hero (CO): $5.06 (101.2 bb)
      BTN: $4.96 (99.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 J
      UTG raises to $0.20, MP raises to $0.60, 4 folds, UTG raises to $3.16 and is all-in, MP calls $2.56

      Flop: ($6.39) T 4 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      Turn: ($6.39) Q (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($6.39) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results: $6.39 pot ($0.42 rake)
      Final Board: T 4 8 Q A
      UTG showed 2 2 and lost (-$3.16 net)
      MP showed K A and won $5.97 ($2.81 net)

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,148
      Originally posted by 8runo
      I didn't believe you.:f_eek:

      So I thought I'd get an example to show you.:f_biggrin:

      Now I believe you! :f_drink:

      Not quite got my head around it ... but I will do.....:f_thumbsup:
      :D
      Yeah -- I had to actually walk through a few hands to get it solid.

      But after all that, I'm going to make sure that those stats are on my popups!

      Cheers,
      VS;
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      I think we posted at the same time there - don't miss my last post, I've become sceptical again lol lol lol
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by 8runo
      If I'd raised this hand, would it not be a 4bet in position against opponents not in the blinds? (To be honest, I've become a little confused about exactly what a 3bet/4bet is preflop - I thought I knew, but w34z3l had a different definition to me pre flop and I haven't totally rerevised my language properly yet)
      Yes, it would definitely be a 4Bet IP vs an opponent not in the blinds.
      When I wrote my post I was not thinking that the 3Bet might have come from someone else.

      I would have thought that HM2 would have a cold 4Bet stat, but they apparently do not.

      If I get bored I might construct a hand and import it into a blank database to see what happens.

      OTOH, perhaps you could sent that hand to HM tech support to find out how it would be coded.

      Cheers,
      VS
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      OTOH, perhaps you could sent that hand to HM tech support to find out how it would be coded.
      Email sent :)
    • 8runo
      8runo
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      Joined: 17.05.2015 Posts: 653
      I've received a response from HM support, and it all makes sense now.....

      The stat you are looking for would be a 'vs 2+ Raisers > TOT Raise vs 2+ Raisers' (i.e. a cold 4bet. We don't count cold 4bets in the normal 4bet stat because ranges are very different.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,148
      Originally posted by 8runo
      I've received a response from HM support, and it all makes sense now.....

      The stat you are looking for would be a 'vs 2+ Raisers > TOT Raise vs 2+ Raisers' (i.e. a cold 4bet. We don't count cold 4bets in the normal 4bet stat because ranges are very different.
      Thanks for posting that -- I was not aware of that -- they're certainly correct about the ranges being very different.

      It also leaves the way clear for "4Bet vs 3Bets from the blinds" to be equal to "4Bet in position"

      Cheers,
      VS