bubble question

    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      regular S'n'G 9 players, top 3 paid

      Chip leader sits with 8k, I'm second in chips with aroud 3k, and two shorstacks with around 1k. Blinds are 120/240. I'm in the BB holding JJ.
      Chipleader is first to act and raises it to 800 (raised last 3 pots or so, uses his big stack on the bubble), two shorstacks fold, hero??

      A: hero calls, flop 3 A 9 rainbow, hero? (is call really an option?),

      B: hero folds and waits for 1 player to bust (what hands are we pushing?) or

      C: hero pushes and busts out, A3>JJ (which obviously happened) :)

      similar situation: second in chips, two shorties with <10BB... hero holds AK?? chipleader goes allin, hero...?

      If we were 5 or 6 handed id instapush/instacall both hands , but on the bubble..?
      i'm tired of getting out in 4th place because i lose PF allin AJ<K10, AQ<66, 1010<A5 and so on...
  • 11 replies
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      you should put the hand on the sample hands forum ;)
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Hi,

      I would proably fold JJ, depending on the previous action and the reads I have on the big stack.
      Even if you double up you won't be a big chip leader so you have not that much to gain and everything to lose. In my experience most of the low buyin SNG players are really bad at heads up so you can easily take his chips there once you get there instead risking in this spot IMO.
    • Freaky304
      Freaky304
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 63
      I wouldn't call JJ, like you said chipleader is using his stack on the bubble giving you 2 options in my opinion, fold taking no risk or just push. The call is a waste of chips cause he's gonna try and steal the pot the moment that flop comes if he hit something or not.

      If you double up you take chiplead and the current chipleader becomes vulnerable and can't use his stack to pick up the blinds, so he will think twice about calling a push. If your willing to push on the flop without hitting a set you can better push pre-flop and not give him a chance to make a better pair.

      about the AK situation: If the chipleader is playing very loose agressive you might wanna call but personally I would fold, it is not a made hand and I rather go all-in on my terms then on someone elses and your not in a hurry because your second with chips.
    • cuxcux
      cuxcux
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 46
      ok, so basically in these kind of situations when i'm second in chips on the bubble i push only QQ+?? or not even QQ?
    • Snarf85
      Snarf85
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.10.2008 Posts: 59
      I'd have pushed pre-flop, definitely! Just calling isn't an option.
    • Freaky304
      Freaky304
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 63

      ok, so basically in these kind of situations when i'm second in chips on the bubble i push only QQ+?? or not even QQ?
      Depends on your style, personally I play the bubble very agressivly and would just like snarf push pre-flop without a second thought.

      If your looking to consolidate chips until the bubble pops.. you can better fold JJ is a good hand but there are still a number of hands that are better or a coinflip.

      I just don't think calling is a good idea, Jacks are to weak to give someone a flop, every QKA is a potential killer every other card as wel as a matter of fact caus he could have raised with any pair and hit trips.

      So pushing or folding is the only way to go. And again what are your goals getting in the money fold is an option if you wanna win push. If you only want to get to the money i would only push KK AA if you have enoug blinds to patiently wait.
    • faz182
      faz182
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2008 Posts: 24
      Someone mentioned getting into the money as opposed to going for the win. YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IN SNGS IS TO CASH. Its not like an mtt where you can make heroic plays on the bubble. You can do that in an mtt where the payout structure is so steep.

      SNGS PROVIDE A RELATIVELY FLAT PAYOUT STRUCTURE. YOUR FIRST GOAL IS TO CASH. ONCE YOU HAVE CASHED, YOUR NEW GOAL IS TO WIN.

      In a standard sng structure 1st gets 50% 2nd 30% and 3rd 20%. This means that 60% of the prize money is effectively allocated when the bubble breaks.

      This being said, id fold here and wait for the small stacks to bust. With the blinds at that level they have to make a move soon. When the bubble breaks, thats when you can play back at the bigstack.
    • Freaky304
      Freaky304
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2008 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by faz182
      Someone mentioned getting into the money as opposed to going for the win. YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IN SNGS IS TO CASH. Its not like an mtt where you can make heroic plays on the bubble. You can do that in an mtt where the payout structure is so steep.

      SNGS PROVIDE A RELATIVELY FLAT PAYOUT STRUCTURE. YOUR FIRST GOAL IS TO CASH. ONCE YOU HAVE CASHED, YOUR NEW GOAL IS TO WIN.

      In a standard sng structure 1st gets 50% 2nd 30% and 3rd 20%. This means that 60% of the prize money is effectively allocated when the bubble breaks.
      True, but still if you win 2 out of 3 its still better then become 2 times 2nd and one time 3th. So IMO it depends on how the field is on your limit. I mostly play for the win and still have a positive ROI. I don't think it matters one way or the other, as long as you don't go making really stupid moves and keep paying attention you CAN play a bit looser here if you choose (If you know chipleader is playing loose also).

      That doesn't mean however that I completly agree with you that it is sometimes better to just wait it out especially if it isn't your lucky day ;)

      But IMO the bubble makes people mad they leave chips that they could pick up easily and make mistakes in desperation if one of the shortstacks suddenly get more chips and you become the shortstack. So I'm for caution but not for tightening to the stage that you leave the bigstack in total control of the table.
    • rhinoneil
      rhinoneil
      Silver
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I cant see how folding into the money is an option at stt.
      If you dont push JJ in this situation you may as well just sit out and hope to make 3rd place.
      Chip leader is using his stack to bully obviously and I would be pushing all day long with JJ and twice on Sundays.
      Same argument for the AK, what hand is he going to move in with that beats AK, possibly a low pair but I would take my chances.
      To make money at stts you have to win often, its not good enough to just keep scraping into 2nd or 3rd. I would much prefer to give myself a chance of winning and take the chance of going out on the bubble than just cross your fingers and hope that one of the shorties busts out.
    • gorgi0128
      gorgi0128
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2008 Posts: 39
      Push the Jacks preflop. He is raising a loosely & your stack is big enough to scare him off, so you have alot of fold equity imo.

      Played as you did I'd make a hard fold on the flop.

      AK I'd probably call. I think it depends on your style - some people prefer to be the instigators of action. If you can steal enough after this hand to have a shot at first, then fold and exploit your edge.

      Alot also depends on your position. Is the bigstack on your left or right?

      On your left you are going to have raise into a bigstack every time you push. Not good.

      On your right you can bully the shortstacks to the left of you as they try and claw onto 3rd place.
    • thunderbird56
      thunderbird56
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2007 Posts: 2,179
      As some already mentioned, calling is definitely not an option in this situation. You either fold or push, depending on the previous actions of the chip leader.