Rules query

    • Mullet1
      Mullet1
      Silver
      Joined: 04.09.2009 Posts: 24
      Hi all, I run a small poker club and we play a live game once a week. The following situation occurred and there was some debate about what actions could be taken. Has anybody come across this before? What actions do you believe are allowed? Thanks for your interest and comments are most welcome.

      4 players remaining. Blinds are 3000/6000. player A has 7000, player B 100k, player C 70k, player D 40k.

      player C posts SB of 3000, player D posts BB of 6000
      Action pre-flop: player A calls 6000, player B folds, player C calls 3000 and player D checks.

      Action post flop : player A goes all in for 1000.

      What are the options for player c?

      I was under the opinion player c could call 1000, raise 6000 (or more) or fold.

      Some others were under the opinion player c had to invest 6000 (or more) into the pot and could not call 1000 as the was not a full BB - or fold of course.

      Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?

      Thanks again for taking the time to read this post.
  • 13 replies
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,446
      I think he can call (1000 of course), but not raise.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,705
      As it looks like a 3 way pot, Player C should be able to raise, assuming Player D is still in the pot.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,446
      Are you sure? There is definitely a spot where raising is not allowed (and that is of course not raising out someone already all in). I never got the hang of that rule (whatever it is) and its rationale.

      It might be this: You are first to act. You check. Next is a micro-stack. He moves in, and a third player calls. Now you can't raise. The rationale would be that the micro-stacks all in counts as a check, and the third players call just counts as a check-behind. Consequently, you can't check-raise because no one really bet! Yes, I think this is it. (But it doesn't answer the OP.)

      I now think the OP's and Lazza61's interpretation is correct.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,960
      Yeh Player C can raise but Player D cannot raise that raise.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,446
      Player D can certainly reraise if C raises.
    • GoOnCal1
      GoOnCal1
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2015 Posts: 581
      From Wikipedia:

      Incomplete bet or raise[edit]

      If a player goes all in with a bet or raise rather than a call, another special rule comes into play. There are two options in common use: pot-limit and no-limit games usually use what is called the full bet rule, while fixed-limit and spread-limit games may use either the full bet rule or the half bet rule. The full bet rule states that if the amount of an all-in bet is less than the minimum bet, or if the amount of an all-in raise is less than the full amount of the previous raise, it does not constitute a "real" raise, and therefore does not reopen the betting action. The half bet rule states that if an all-in bet or raise is equal to or larger than half the minimum amount, it does constitute a raise and reopens the action.

      For example, with the full bet rule in effect, a player opens the betting round for $20, and the next player has a total stake of $30. He may raise to $30, declaring himself all in, but this does not constitute a "real" raise, in the following sense: if a third player now calls the $30, and the first player's turn to act comes up, he may now call the additional $10, but he does not have the right to re-raise further. The all-in player's pseudo-raise was really just a call with some extra money, and the third player's call was just a call, so the initial opener's bet was simply called by both remaining players, closing the betting round (even though he must still equalize the money by putting in the additional $10). If the half bet rule were being used, then that raise would count as a genuine raise and the first player would be entitled to re-raise if he chose to (creating a side pot for the amount of his re-raise and the third player's call, if any).
    • mineriva
      mineriva
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2008 Posts: 913
      With other players in the hand any player with more than 1 BB left can never place a bet for less than 1BB. Therefore the min is to "bet" 1BB. He can never "call" < 1BB
    • GoOnCal1
      GoOnCal1
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2015 Posts: 581
      I believe the situation Yohan is referring to, is when you make a bet, and then the short stack goes all in on top, but not large enough to constitute a raise, player in the middle calls, you are now only able to call and not shove now, which can feel irksome when it happens.
      :-)
    • Mullet1
      Mullet1
      Silver
      Joined: 04.09.2009 Posts: 24
      Thanks for the responses so far. It seems this is not as clear as I believed.

      Just to confirm : 3 players postflop, blinds 3000/6000. 1st player bets all in for 1000, what are the options for the 2nd player with a player behind still to act?

      Can the player call a bet(?) for less than a BB?

      Cheers all.
    • mineriva
      mineriva
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2008 Posts: 913
      Can the player call a bet(?) for less than a BB?

      NO
    • GoOnCal1
      GoOnCal1
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2015 Posts: 581
      I believe Minerva is correct, the all in is best described as an incomplete raise, player 2 cannot take advantage and just call for 1000

      Like to add, when playing scrabble or canasta, its always good to have a copy of official rules nearby.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,446
      Originally posted by GoOnCal1
      I believe the situation Yohan is referring to, is when you make a bet, and then the short stack goes all in on top, but not large enough to constitute a raise, player in the middle calls, you are now only able to call and not shove now, which can feel irksome when it happens.
      :-)
      It happens quite often in tourneys, but not often enough to burn that spot into my brain yet. Short-stack after you? Don't let him micro-bet or micro-raise if you have a monster. Conversely, with a yucky hand, check and hope he moves in.
    • Mullet1
      Mullet1
      Silver
      Joined: 04.09.2009 Posts: 24
      I agree GoOnCal1 that having a copy of the rules handy is a good idea.

      I take my rules from Poker TDA and the following rule seems to contradict what Mineriva is saying :

      Poker TDA

      Rule 41:
      Re-opening the bet.
      Example 2
      Short all-in, 2 scenarios.
      NLHE, Blinds 2000-4000. Pre-flop A calls the BB and puts out 4000. B folds and C pushes all-in for 7500 total (an increment of 3500 above the 4000 BB). It’s folded around to the SB who also folds.
      Example 2 - A.
      It’s 3500 more to the BB who has not yet acted on his option. The BB can fold, smooth call the 3500, or raise by at least 4000 for a total of 11,500. The BB smooth calls and it’s 3500 more to A. A has already acted and is facing 3500 which is not a full raise. Therefore A can only fold or call the 3500, he cannot raise because it is not “at least a full bet when the action returns to him”.
      Example 2 - B.
      The BB raises the minimum (4000), for a total of 11500. It is now 7500 to A and because 7500 is more than a full minimum raise, betting is now re-opened for A who can fold, call, or re-raise.

      Poker Tournament Directors Association
      Longform
      2013 Rules Version 1.1, Released Aug. 11 2013
      Illustration Addendum to 2013 TDA Rules and Procedures Version 1.0

      I would be interested to know what rulebooks others use for live play?