Peoples opinion on Shortstacking

    • WhiteWalker
      WhiteWalker
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      Joined: 06.06.2015 Posts: 464
      Just wondering what your guys opinions are on the short stack approach. It can be very profitable from what I have heard and reduce variance. Has anyone tried it over a relatively large sample of hands?
  • 21 replies
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      How can it reduce variance? As far as I know it actually increases the variance as you need to play a lot of all-in situations.

      General problem with short stacking in PLO is that preflop equities run so close. You can't gain a lot of edge by preflop hand selecting, as you could in Holdem. At micros rake kills any possible edge you may get.

      Usually the reason for playing short stacked at higher stakes (like Jens does) is that there are really deep stacks in the table whom will bluff each other from the big side pot every now and then. And rake is really minimal, compared to 15-20bb/100 as in micros.

      Against bad players (most of the opponents at micros) you win most at the turn/river where the size of the mistakes are the biggest. By playing short stacked you eliminate this opportunity for them to make huge mistakes.
    • GoOnCal1
      GoOnCal1
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    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      Usually at micros shortstacking is bad just because people are so incredibly weak that they'll let you get 2-3 streets of value from any 2 pair+ and you will often run out of chips to ship by the turn being short. However I can make a bet with Kyyberi anytime and prove that shortstacking at micros can be profitable. Just not as profitable as playing full stack. At low stakes shortstacking is already decent and i know at least 2 decent players that are profitable with that. Obviously mid and higher stakes are even better for shortstackers because the edge is lower and rake is lower so the advantage of being able to stack off marginal hands becomes even more rewarding.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      If you can post a graph that is played with 40bb stacks at micros (filter effective stacks to max 40bb) and it is profitable beyond the doubt of variance, I would be surprised. :)
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      If you can post a graph that is played with 40bb stacks at micros (filter effective stacks to max 40bb) and it is profitable beyond the doubt of variance, I would be surprised. :)

      beyond the doubt of variance and PLO do not go in the same sentence, sorry!
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Not totally beyond, but beyond enough. 10K sample size is pointless, but with 50K we can at least make some assumptions based on EV line. 100K is even better.
    • Janosikgdy
      Janosikgdy
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      Joined: 06.05.2007 Posts: 4,472
      At Micro People are bad and you wart takę max value, so you waNT play big stack. On high stakes if a Fish is short, some Players play stack size of Fish to bumhunt Fish and minimalize variance vs deepstack regs.
    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      Joined: 22.01.2007 Posts: 456
      Kyyberi no I cant post that graph coz no decent player plays 40bb at micros. But how does that prove anything? However I can get u a profitable graph in both EV and real money over 10k hands on 1/2 cents playing 40bb if you give me 1000$ action to propbet or smth.
    • FlyingDutchm1n
      FlyingDutchm1n
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      @ Janosikgdy good point and with the rake at the micros if you are not able to scoop these 200bb+ pots it will be very hard to stay afloat. Also it is great to win these big pots with a lot of equity on the river (lower 2 pair based full house vs your set based full house) or other dominated hands but also having more implied odds with combodraw and wraps as well which would not be possible shortstacked.
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Originally posted by MIStrZZZ
      Kyyberi no I cant post that graph coz no decent player plays 40bb at micros. But how does that prove anything? However I can get u a profitable graph in both EV and real money over 10k hands on 1/2 cents playing 40bb if you give me 1000$ action to propbet or smth.
      As Kyybery pointed out 10k hands is pointless. the rake must be harsh on 1/2cents PLO , I think you will struggle more than you think. PLO ios much more a post flop game, edge preflop is very small in most case and the smaller the stack the less the postflop game.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      In my project for PLO2 Zoom I have paid around 16bb/100 rake. Really hard to see 40bb shortstacker to beat that and the blinds. RFI 12% vs. RFI 30% is 55-45 preflop. Even if you could shove that 12% range preflop and opponents always stacks off with 30% range, you EV for the hand is +4bb. If you get 3way allin against two 30% ranges your EV is same +4bb. Once you add 5% rake your EV is 0 after rake in HU and -2bb in 3way allin. So even shoving nice equity edge preflop doesn't make profit pre-rakeback.

      Of course things are not that simple. In single raised pot you will have SPR around 6 which gives room for poker.

      Main question is this: why play short stacked at micros? What is the extra value compared to 100bb stacks? You can play small ball with 100bb and play small pots (where you don't invest over 40bb without a strong hand) and wait for the nuts to put 100bb in.

      MIStrZZZ said:"Kyyberi no I cant post that graph coz no decent player plays 40bb at micros. But how does that prove anything? ". Well it proves that it probably isn't that profitable as no one does it. There are short stackers, why doesn't any of those make profit?

      But it would be a really interesting prob bet: can you play 50K hands with 40bb or less for profit pre-rakeback at micros?
    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      I was obviously talking about post-rb. Rb is very large part of micro player's winrate, therefore it cant be left out. I'm pretty sure I could do that over 50k hands, but then theres no point coz I would have to get like 5k+ action to even consider wasting so much time and energy on this kind of challenge. Also playing so many hands 40bb or less would be impossible due to new pokerstars rules.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Yeah I heard that rat holing rules have changed, what are the new ones?
    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      the amount you leave the table with is what you ocan buy in on another table after leaving few times with more than 40 bbs
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Does that apply to Zoom too?
    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      yes
    • GoOnCal1
      GoOnCal1
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      Does Pokerstars changing of the rules mean there is a perceived bias in shortstacking, or does it mean they change the rules based on some irrational concepts??
      Regards Michael.
    • MIStrZZZ
      MIStrZZZ
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      they did it because its more profitable and disadvantageous to big stacking players
    • Voodoo0child
      Voodoo0child
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      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 3
      all the short stackers I have any decent sample on are losing steadily
      and variance certainly increases as your no-showdown winnings are low
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