[NL2-NL10] Nl25 Jj

    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Overview: I had to go all in here right? CO had a 3-bet range of 2%, but it's kind of pointless to use that statistic without a vast sample size. Is there a good way to estimate 3-bet range from the Pre Flop Raise statistic?


      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $21.30
      BB:
      $34.70
      MP1:
      $6.10
      Hero:
      $5.20
      MP3:
      $26.20
      CO:
      $5.25
      BU:
      $12.25

      0.1/0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.65 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J:heart: , J:spade:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $1.00, MP3 calls $1.00, CO raises to $5.25 (All-In), 3 folds, Hero calls $4.20 (All-In), MP3 calls $4.25.

      Flop: ($16.05) 6:club: , 6:heart: , 9:diamond:
      Turn: ($16.05) 9:heart:
      River: ($16.05) 4:spade: (3 players)


      Final Pot: $16.05
  • 8 replies
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Nh. Specially with the money of MP3.

      You can approximately estimate 3-bet range from PFR by about 1/4 of the PFR, so I'd say 2-3% with 8 PFR. I think I saw that in some instructional video said by some coach. So, if we put villain on 3%(JJ+/AK) then you have 37,4% equity with your JJ and with your pot odds you'd need 35,7%(in case MP3 doesn't call and we cannot presume he does). So you see, you have to call here.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by burek2000
      You can approximately estimate 3-bet range from PFR by about 1/4 of the PFR, so I'd say 2-3% with 8 PFR. I think I saw that in some instructional video said by some coach. So, if we put villain on 3%(JJ+/AK) then you have 37,4% equity with your JJ and with your pot odds you'd need 35,7%(in case MP3 doesn't call and we cannot presume he does). So you see, you have to call here.
      Sorry but start using Xarry's equity chart because thats pinpoint accurate and these Axioma's you make up can even make you fold QQ when its not necessary :(

      On Nl25 I will judge hands based on basic SSS.

      Basic SSS says shove but you have to see for yourself if you know if CO is a PS SSS player because then you would have to fold JJ only when you are getting reraised.

      Because he plays according to the silver article, how to play against fellow PS SSS'ers and one can see that a SSS MP openraise will get reraised by 3% AK+,JJ+ thus I fold JJ against that if I were the openraiser.

      I go for the shove unless you know very very sure you face a PS SSSplayer

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Sorry but start using Xarry's equity chart because thats pinpoint accurate and these Axioma's you make up can even make you fold QQ when its not necessary :(

      Because he plays according to the silver article, how to play against fellow PS SSS'ers and one can see that a SSS MP openraise will get reraised by 3% AK+,JJ+ thus I fold JJ against that if I were the openraiser.

      Gerv
      OK, so I have two questions here, ok, maybe three... :)

      First, were my calculations incorrect? Shouldn't we go broke against JJ+/AK range with the money of MP3?

      Second, I'd like to ask what Xarry's chart are you referring to, cause I don't think I know it? Or, did you only mean to say I should play more basic on that limit? ...according to the charts in articles?
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      Hi , I think a call is good here, you can't be sure if he is SSS player, or his 3 betting range and you have dead money.

      However i'm confused about something Gerv.

      Because he plays according to the silver article, how to play against fellow PS SSS'ers and one can see that a SSS MP openraise will get reraised by 3% AK+,JJ+ thus I fold JJ against that if I were the openraiser.


      Doesn't he get the odds to call against JJ+,AK? He gets 42% equity and I think he needs less. However if we modify this range a bit to JJ+,AKs the equity changes dramaticly. Altough there's dead money on the pot and maybe that's good enough to raise AKo since then villian gets 48% equity against our range?.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Thanks for the replys. I use xarrys equity vs range charts - which are great if you can estimate the opponents 3-bet range. I wasn't really sure how to do this, so I posted the hand.

      As for the basic vs Advanced SSS thing. I'm trying to get used to using statistics before I move up a limit. And anyway, they're useful to avoid EV- situations like pushing AK against a very tight UTG or etc.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hello guys

      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      Doesn't he get the odds to call against JJ+,AK? He gets 42% equity and I think he needs less.
      I thought 1 step further as you normally should because IF you know very very sure as I said twice already when given an opinion about Fold, that your opponent is a PokerStrategy Shortstacker then his shoverange will be AKo+,JJ+. BUT if he shoves with JJ, his variance is huge since his equity is 50.2% (Source: PS Silver Article) Therefore one can say - a player who wants to avoid Variance as much as possible like me - that JJ can be left out of the range so his range would be AKo+,QQ+

      Equity against that is 33,8% and he needs to have 36% according to my calculation:
      $5.2+$2+$0.35)x0.95[RAKE] :: 4.2
      $7,1725:$4,2
      1.70773:1
      =
      36% Break-Even equity needed

      Can you see where I am going? You can call and that's what I recommend for Basic SSS (Stack:Ratio) but from my POV when you want to include calculations for NL25, this is a fold for immense variance.

      Originally posted by burek2000
      First, were my calculations incorrect? Shouldn't we go broke against JJ+/AK range with the money of MP3?

      Second, I'd like to ask what Xarry's chart are you referring to, cause I don't think I know it? Or, did you only mean to say I should play more basic on that limit? ...according to the charts in articles?
      (1) See above +

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 65,667 % 63,922 % 3,491 % 32,587 % JJ+, AKo
      Player 2: 34,333 % 32,587 % 3,491 % 63,922 % JJ
      (2) Xarry's Equity chart can be downlaoded through a link on his Coaching info. That said, you have to visit the coachings in order to get the chart ^^

      (3) Up and included NL50, there are more Monkeys than TAGs wandering around so basic SSS is the way to go and concerning judging hands, I will stick to basic SSS answers unless you post hands of NL100+

      Does this makes sense?
      Gerv
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Hey Gerv,

      thanks for the explanation. Coachings are one thing I've never tried on PS.com, so I think I better start. Later is better than never. :)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by burek2000
      thanks for the explanation. Coachings are one thing I've never tried on PS.com, so I think I better start. Later is better than never. :)
      Naughty Boy! Caught your leak right on the spot :D , just kidding, looking forward to see you on any coachings (Ingol,Xarry)