playing 2nd pairs on flop with initiative

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Hi,

      I always forget how to play the cbets, even when they are done very often.

      I think probably the reason is, that I do not fully understand. I have in the documents written things:

      Cbet hands which retain equity well when get called

      - Cbet 2nd pair when there are lot of bad overcards, which do not make draws and if I expect those overcards (equity) to fold. So if the board is like A86, I can even cbet 55-22, because lot of high equity hands like KQ, KJ, KT, QJ,... will fold.

      Second pair when gets called, does not have good equity anymore. So it looks like not a cbet, but then this guideline tells that to fold high equity cards.

      Ok, those broadways really do not make a draw and can fold. So I hope I can cbet for same reason TT, 99. JJ maybe is not a cbet because there is only KQ which will fold, which is not big part? Lets assume I am SB vs BB if you need, but I want guidelines in general.


      Now one more guideline:

      On A96fd board - cbet TT.

      Once gets called - equity does not remain well. THere are now lot of draws which will call. The reason to bet this was:

      to protect equity
      How we are protecting the equity if we are not making lot of hands fold? We are making broadways to fold which are not having flushdraw, but there are many draws.

      Another guideline:

      A6s on J62fd - bet small to keep his range wide

      Hey, but we wanted to fold equity in earlier guidelines and now we want to make oponent fold less. Of course this makes sence - to make opponent call lighter when we have weak pair. But then why in other examples we want them to fold? We should want also to make opponents pay with KQ on Axx board by betting small enough, shouldn't we? So thats how we would make money - by making him pay with worse hand not getting the right odds.


      And not when to not bet 2nd pair
      - When there are many bad overcards which we do not expect to fold. Because on turn his range will be stronger once he calls. Only it is good to bet when we make fold those overs.

      Ok so on TT on A96fd board when we get called, on turn also when he catches draw - his range is now stronger, plus he has Ax some of time. So we should also not bet.
      Or A6s on J62ff board. We could think, ok there is less draws, because 34s people do not flat preflop. But we are betting smaller to keep their range wide, what is wide - making him call with KQ? So it increases him the chance to hit the turn and so by this guideline we should not bet.

      So the guidelines are conflicting with each other and I end up not knowing clearly what to do.

      So can you explain what is wrong here?

      Update:
      Read one more guideline:

      As a general rule of thumb, a marginal strength made hand should be bet on the flop if it is vulnerable to being outdrawn by hands in the opponent’s check-folding range.


      So maybe need to think simpler: just if there are many hands which can c/f and are overcards to my pair, - then bet.
      So using this will be correct on A86 flop with 55-22, also on A96fd w TT, because we still make fold Kx-Jx.
      About A6s on J62fd - for folding Ax-Qx, Tx-7x is good. Still do not understand about keeping wide range. All 6x will call even 0.75 pot bet lets say SB vs BB. Or he could mean to bet small to get calls from 2x? And so we get value, fold those overcards which have 28 % equity?
  • 2 replies
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I personally think the best way to understand what hands should go into what ranges is by spending time to see where all the hands in your range fit in on that particular board. Also keep in mind that mixed ranges are in play and a lot of hands go in both checking and betting ranges.

      In the A86 example:
      Theoretically speaking I'm pretty sure mixed range are in play here for sure. K8 is a middle pair, 87 is a middle pair. More combos of K8 will be checked than bet and more combos of 87 will be bet than checked IMO. The reason to do so is by checking K8 you keep other Kx hands in opponents range alive, the weaker ones, while if you bet them they would just fold the flop. Weaker 8x hands won't improve as much while improving opponents range too in the way you want to, like K turn makes your 2 pair a whole lot better against his K pair which will now call you down while with 87 7 turn won't help him as much or really help his T9, either way you don't get value and its a lose-lose situation.

      So if you had all K8 and all 87 in your opening range then on this flop i would bet like say 4 combos and check 8 while for 87 i might do the opposite, bet 8 combos and check 4.

      Now if you cbet all your middle pairs and write down all your combos which bet or check you might realize that your ranges are skewed towards betting or checking.

      55-22 aren't middle pairs they are weak pairs. So if my checking and betting ranges have sub divisions of "Likely future bluffs" in checking range and "bluffs" in betting range then they would fit in one of these two depending on boards and opponents ranges. When I make ranges I do these bottom pairs in the end, just as a way to balance stuff up and see where they fit in. Fitting them in both ranges can be correct and doable cause yes they can be checked to bluff on a later street if its checked through and yes they can be bluffed now to make higher equity hands fold but the thing is I've found there are better hands to fit in both those categories.

      In the hands that bluff to make higher equity hands fold category I always prefer gutshots and some backdoor draws before hands like 22-55 cause the weak draws can barrel many other turns. On A86 a BDFD can barrel cleanly on 9 turns and gutshots can barrel on straights and many cards that improve them to OESD while bottom pairs can only improve by 2 outs.

      Same way hands in the "likely future bluffs" category are best described as hands that are really shitty with no equity cause best to bluff a 0% equity hand on the river than on flop where you can bluff a hand with 15% equity. However 22-55 don't even figure there cause they have some equity its just tough to realize it.

      So in my analysis I sort these type of hand sin the end which are sometimes bluffed and sometimes checked.

      What I'm trying to say is, people might give reasons to do that might seem conflicting but they may both be right cause these hands just follow mixed ranges i.e. sometimes checked and sometimes bet.

      On A96 flush draw board, my thought process goes like this:
      KK, QQ are surely checked. They will x/c 1 or 2 bets.

      TT and sometimes JJ are bet cause they can check, a K or Q can hit and a hand like Kx or Qx can improve and you wanna deny them free cards.

      Again, some player way more advanced than me can surely argue for mixed ranges with maybe more KK and QQ being checked and few be bet while more TT be bet and few be checked and would be correct saying that too.

      I don't know if I'm making any sense to you, all I can say is play around with ranges and see where what all fits. You might realize that there are better hands to fit in some categories before worrying about the really tough spots.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      The reason to do so is by checking K8 you keep other Kx hands in opponents range alive, the weaker ones, while if you bet them they would just fold the flop.
      that is true, but still there are Qx, Jx which can fold.
      But as you say 22-55 can be bet, can be checked, then its not terrible to bet those :)

      In the hands that bluff to make higher equity hands fold category I always prefer gutshots and some backdoor draws before hands like 22-55 cause the weak draws can barrel many other turns.


      I also would prefer backdoors, but if we can bet those, I think why not, to protect equity and make fold lot of stuff and win the pot. If we do not bet, we have to practically give them up, or let opoennt catch his KQ and stuff by seeing 2 cards. Its hard to call the bets with those PPs as bluffcatchers. He even can bet his KQ then, and so now he not only has 28% equity, but also a fold equity.

      So by current thinking I like betting small pairs on A86, without any info that oppoent plays back. PLus also betting those backdoors.
      Btw I yesterday skipped some cbets with like KQ on A86, to keep oponents weaker Kx and Qx. WHich makes sense I guess, even when we have backdoor draw. Not finding qiuckly the exact hand, but was using this logic for sure.



      TT and sometimes JJ are bet cause they can check, a K or Q can hit and a hand like Kx or Qx can improve and you wanna deny them free cards.


      Do we need to worry with JJ on A96fd? Only overcards are KQ, so maybe thats too small part of range?