Double or Nothing Tournaments are getting Frustrating.

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      I used to use these as a quick way to clear bonuses.
      You only need to cash 56% of the time to break even, and the bonus is, well, a bonus.

      This is not working for me this time.
      Here is my first 259 40¢ DoN tournaments on 888
      I switched down to the 40¢ level when my winrate at the $10 tournaments dropped below 52%



      Take this hand for example:
      888 Poker - $0.36+$0.04|90/180 Ante 15 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 325 (20.69/15.38/0.00/29 (V/P/3/H)
      SB: 165 (31.03/7.41/0.00/29 (V/P/3/H)
      BB: 1,005 (10.71/11.11/0.00/29 (V/P/3/H)
      UTG: 1,065 (35.56/0.00/0.00/47 (V/P/3/H)
      MP: 1,310 (48.28/7.14/0.00/29 (V/P/3/H)
      Hero (CO): 130

      6 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 90, BB posts BB 180

      Pre Flop: (pot: 360) Hero has :Qc: :Qs:

      UTG calls 180, fold, Hero calls 115 and is all-in, BTN raises to 310 and is all-in, fold, fold, UTG calls 130

      Flop: (1,095, 3 players) :Ks: :9d: :2s:

      Turn: (1,095, 3 players) :8c:

      River: (1,095, 3 players) :8s:

      BTN shows :Jc: :Ac: (One Pair, Eights)

      Main Pot [640]: (Pre 21%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
      Side Pot#1 [455]: (Pre 74%, Flop 84%, Turn 93%)

      UTG shows :Ah: :Td: (One Pair, Eights)

      Main Pot [640]: (Pre 10%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
      Side Pot#1 [455]: (Pre 26%, Flop 16%, Turn 7%)

      Hero shows :Qc: :Qs: (Two Pair, Queens and Eights)

      Main Pot [640]: (Pre 68%, Flop 90%, Turn 95%)

      Hero wins 640
      BTN wins 455

      Here, UTG limps -- fair enough -- the more people that are in the pot, the more likely I'm going to get busto.
      BU's raise makes absolutely no sense as far as I can tell. He gives UTG superb odds to call.

      I got lucky here, but that isn't the point. I guess what is the point:
      How do you adjust when players are way too wide?

      Here is what the holdem resources nash calculator says about this hand.

      UTGs limpe is the same as an all-in as far as I'm concerned -- I think he should do this with any two.
      BU's raise makes no sense at all here.
      I have to call of course.

      So the big question again:
      When players are calling too wide -- do I tighten up, or do I shove wider to get them to call with crap?
      In DoNs this is even more important, because lose a hand, and you're dead.

      Cheers,
      VS
  • 16 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Here is a better example
      888 Poker - $0.36+$0.04|60/120 Ante 10 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: 800 (20.51/8.57/0.00/39 (V/P/3/H)
      CO: 770 (17.39/12.77/2.78/210 (V/P/3/H)
      BTN: 765 (29.87/5.48/11.76/78 (V/P/3/H)
      Hero (SB): 815
      BB: 850 (18.31/17.04/5.83/665 (V/P/3/H)

      5 players post ante of 10, Hero posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120

      Pre Flop: (pot: 230) Hero has :Kh: :Th:

      UTG raises to 790 and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 670

      Flop: (1,690, 2 players) :Td: :9c: :Qd:

      Turn: (1,690, 2 players) :3h:

      River: (1,690, 2 players) :6s:

      UTG shows :Ks: :Ac: (High Card, Ace)
      (Pre 74%, Flop 29%, Turn 16%)
      BB shows :As: :9h: (One Pair, Nines)
      (Pre 26%, Flop 71%, Turn 84%)
      BB wins 1,690


      We're on the bubble:
      According to nash

      According to nash UTG should open shove any two cards -- and he does.
      But why on earth does it make sense to shove any two, when two people after you have you covered?

      In this case, he shove AKo, and was ahead, but If either myself in SB or BB called, he loses -- this time.
      Knowing that he can shove any two here, I think BB thought he was far enough ahead of UTG's overall range to call.

      So it seems that the nash equilibrium is all broken for DoNs

      Or am I missing something obvious again...
      VS
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,180
      ICM in DON’s is ugly. It’s pretty much a satellite that 50% of the players win. So your goal is to reach top 4 and it doesn’t matter how much chips you have. So you need to call extreme tight if you’re not the short stack. So the call of BB is bad here and it’s likely the UTG player isn’t pushing any 2 as well.

      Maybe good to check the article Bubble Strategy (5): Satellites and DONs as well.
      I think you can learn a lot of it.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by SDK1987
      ICM in DON’s is ugly[1] . It’s pretty much a satellite that 50% of the players win. So your goal is to reach top 4 and it doesn’t matter how much chips you have. So you need to call extreme tight if you’re not the short stack[2] . So the call of BB is bad here and it’s likely the UTG player isn’t pushing any 2 as well.

      Maybe good to check the article[3] Bubble Strategy (5): Satellites and DONs as well.
      Yeah, I totally agree.
      [1] One thing that really cooks it is the fact that people limp/shove their monsters.
      I can't count the times I've been shortest or 2nd shortest, and shove over a limper with JJ+ only to find he has AA.
      Not that it matters -- in most of those I was calling a shove anyway.

      [2] To be fair, the Nash calculator I've been using does set the calling ranges at KK+ for most situations for all but the shortest stack, and even then only when his stack is low. I have even seen situations where it is most sensible to fold AA pre-flop. For example, you are in BB with 2nd shortest stack holding AA, and a big stack shoves. You would call any time except when UTG has less than 1 BB and will be out most likely on the next hand. I do think that the Nash calculator's ranges for open shoving are far too wide though. I think that people are calling wider, and if you call too wide under those circumstances, you get beaten a lot.

      [3] Thanks for that! I knew of that article -- I don't know why I didn't think of going over it.
      IIRC, there are some videos on DoNs. At one time we had a coach who specialized in them. A Russian guy, I think -- but I can't remember his name.


      VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Also it helps to Read the Fine Manual:
      From the FAQ of the Holdem Resources Nash Calculator
      Q:  Are the results real Nash equilibria?
      A:  No, they are just approximations. The formal requirement for a Nash Equilibrium is that players must not be able to unilaterally improve their own equity by deviating from the Nash Equilibrium. For the vast majority of results produced by the calculator, this condition will not be met. But in most cases, players will not be able to improve their equity significantly when unilaterally deviating from the calculated ranges.
      I think that in the case of the 40¢ 888 DoNs sufficient numbers of players have no clue, and what I'm doing is actually harming myself by expecting them to fold when they really truly should.

      I'll tighten up a whole pile, and use what little edge I have for the bubble.


      VS
    • murzius
      murzius
      Gold
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 131
      i think it's lik forr 3buks whey a going for anything :)
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Yeah, who cares if they lose 40 cents?
      I was playing these while I worked on a script to move windows around, stack them, tile them, show the lobby of the current table etc.

      The problem is, I was losing big time as you can see from the graph, and this has never happened to me before at Double-or-Nothings.

      I was just curious about why it was happening.


      VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      I played a single tournament, and ran each "decision" by the HRC nash calculator.
      This hand is a no-brainer, and is just to illustrate the level of play I face.
      UTG essentially donates about 10% of his stack with no chance of winning.
      If he really did have a hand worth playing, a shove is the only play.
      No-one but the cripple should call, so the most he loses is the same 1 BB.
      At the very least, he should min-raise to make the BB pay. In this case, BB almost certainly would have folded (I think).

      888 Poker - $0.36+$0.04|20/40 Ante 5 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 7 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG+1: 390 (28.57/0.00/0.00/7 (V/P/3/H)
      MP: 540 (28.57/0.00/0.00/7 (V/P/3/H)
      Hero (CO): 540
      BTN: 40 (17.89/16.45/11.25/442 (V/P/3/H)
      SB: 510 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 7)
      BB: 1,025 (42.86/28.57/0.00/7 (V/P/3/H)
      UTG: 955 (14.29/16.67/0.00/7 (V/P/3/H)

      7 players post ante of 5, SB posts SB 20, BB posts BB 40

      Pre Flop: (pot: 95) Hero has :2c: :8d:

      fold, UTG+1 calls 40, fold, fold, BTN calls 35 and is all-in, fold, BB checks

      Flop: (170, 3 players) :7d: :Qd: :6c:
      BB checks, UTG+1 checks

      Turn: (170, 3 players) :6h:
      BB bets 170, fold

      River: (170, 2 players) :4d:

      BTN shows :3h: :Ks: (One Pair, Sixes)
      (Pre 56%, Flop 72%, Turn 86%)
      BB shows :9c: :Js: (One Pair, Sixes)
      (Pre 44%, Flop 28%, Turn 14%)
      BTN wins 160
      BB wins 10



      The first hmmmm.... hand was :Ac: :7s: UTG
      Blinds: 30/60 Ante: 5
      UTG: 525 -- Hero folds -- :7s: :Ac:
      UTG+1: 275
      UTG+2: 475
      CO: 950
      BU: 975
      SB: 275 -- calls
      BB: 525 -- checks

      HRC says push Ax+. I definitely disagree here, especially since people are calling way, way too wide. All the KQs hands, better Aces, pocket pairs and other junk can easily call this. in those cases I'm a flip -- and why flip?

      Then this:
      Blinds: 40/80 Ante: 5
      UTG: 270 raises all-in
      UTG+1: 470
      UTG+2: 945
      CO: 970
      BU: 210
      SB: 615
      BB: 520 Hero folds -- :As: :3d:
      Clear fold, HRC agrees

      I then open-shoved :As: :Qd: in the SB and took the pot.
      No arguments there, either.

      Next
      Blinds: 40/80 Ante: 5
      UTG: 960
      UTG+1: 200
      CO: 985
      BU: 540 hero folds :Jh: :Kh:
      SB: 380 raises
      BB: 935
      HRC says BU should push K5s+
      Again, I'm going to get called by A8+, and all PP even though they "shouldn't"

      My first real raise:
      Blinds: 50/100 Ante: 10
      UTG: 970
      UTG+1: 525 -- hero raises :Ad: :Jc:
      CO: 475
      BU: 1000
      SB: 845
      BB: 185
      Not quite the bubble, about 5BB seems reasonable.
      HRC agrees, but barely. Interestingly, it also says BB should call with any two. Since after posting, he has 75 chips left I think I have to agree there. 72o is only a 2:1 dog vs AJo, and he needs to put in 75 chips to win 185. He blinded out w/o a fight a couple of hands later.

      Following that hand, I got 4 successive walks in the BB, and played no other hands Neither did anyone else. Easy game

      2nd to last hand of the tournament:
      Blinds: 90/180 Ante: 15
      UTG: 1545
      CO: 760
      BU: 445
      SB: 830 -- hero raises :Kh: :Qc:
      BB: 420
      HRC says push any two from SB, and BB should call w/ 50%
      I'm going to say I'll be tighter than that. How much tighter, I can't say.
      If BB wins, I'm short stack, with a smaller stack than BTN who can punish me.
      I need those chips, and I can't be sure BB will actually fold as required.

      That was a very interesting exercise, but a heck of a lot of work.
      What fascinated me the most is the early recognition that stack size relative to the blinds, and stack size relative to the players behind you are factors actually more important than the cards you hold.

      I wrote a script that generates the HRC URLs and the table of stacks from the hand history as exported by PT4.

      What would REALLY make this cool is the ability to query the PT4 db and extract the hand histories that way.

      I hope somebody else gets something out of this...
      VS
    • CRI4BRA
      CRI4BRA
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2008 Posts: 147
      the least amount of skill of all poker = dons
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Originally posted by CRI4BRA
      the least amount of skill of all poker = dons
      Well, the skill set for DoN's is somewhat different than for standard SnGs.
      The push/fold ranges are totally different, but in the long run it is just another poker game.

      As for "least amount of skill", I would say that particular honour goes to Spingoes and their cousins.

      At first, I applied the ranges I used for the $11 DoNs I played before to the 40¢ ones.
      The problem is that the players there call far too wide, and I did not adjust properly.

      Since I read the article that SDK1987 recommended my winrate is once again positive.

      Cheers,
      VS
    • MindBlastDPR
      MindBlastDPR
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      Joined: 15.01.2016 Posts: 8
      Ok:f_drink:
    • tinobt1
      tinobt1
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      Joined: 27.02.2013 Posts: 5
      This is very funny I read this before somewhere but whats the point
    • vladvmc
      vladvmc
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      Joined: 06.02.2016 Posts: 1
      hmm..interesting
    • magicadil
      magicadil
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      Joined: 03.05.2012 Posts: 181
      I play $20 8 handed Double or Nothing on 888. The key is to play super tight, and don't always C-Bet. Even at the $20 limit, lots of players will call an early raise with suited connectors. I was just in one not too long ago, I had Aces, raise UTG, get 3 bet, another guy 4 bets, all 3 get it in preflop. They show 5,6 suited, & 10,J suited.
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,180
      That’s pretty crazy especially at the $20 stakes. That could be a goldmine on long run.
    • dragangor
      dragangor
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      Joined: 18.10.2010 Posts: 1
      The best, double or nothing
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Originally posted by dragangor
      The best, double or nothing
      Hi, dragangor,
      Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

      I've always liked them, but I rather dislike the 50-50 format, and no rooms I play at have true DoNs any more.

      Perhaps you could take a moment to Introduce yourself

      As you browse the site, be sure to check out the free money offers.

      Any questions? Just ask!

      Best of luck,
      VS