Totally disagree with PP quiz: question one

    • vermoont
      vermoont
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.05.2008 Posts: 34
      "Question 1.1.

      Stacks & Stats
      BB ($125.43)
      SB ($123.50)
      BU ($88)
      CO ($143.65)
      MP ($145.50)
      Hero ($134.45)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2 , 2
      Hero...

      How do you react?


      fold (0 Points)
      limp (0 Points)
      raise (3 Points)



      Your answer fold (0 Points)


      Quite an easy question to start off with. You should raise every pocket pair first-in, which of course includes 22 from UTG. A limp would theoretically be possible, but it would make our hand quite obvious. Before becoming readable by planning to open-limp every small pocket pair, you should rather fold them. However, since their playability is too good, a raise can be the only right option."

      This is totally wrong.. 44 UTG has an EV of 0 (which means over thousands of hands, it should be a neutral result, or should end with neither being profitable or unprofitable), therefore 22 has a -EV. Now one could say that it would be situational, and I agree to an extent with the arguement, on the other hand I think it would be way more profitable to rather play something like 9Ts or ATo UTG in a soft game. Although it may seem that this evalution does not make sence, it needs to be looked at over a great volume. With a hand like 22 you are going to make a set are (add %), all the other times you will have bottom pair out of position and have no idea where you stand. Say you make a C-bet and get one fold and one caller, the turn isn't a 2, what now? On the other hand if you have something like 9Ts, when you do hit either your 9 or T you will normally have middle pair or top pair, and very seldomly have bottom pair. You know have a better idea of how strong your hand is with regards to other players and can play accordingly.

      So 22 UTG is a no no in my books.
      I am somewhat shocked that PS would be releasing info like that, after all of the great strategy articles I have read I was shocked with this.
      Thoughts?
  • 40 replies
    • adr0001
      adr0001
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by vermoont
      I am somewhat shocked that PS would be releasing info like that, after all of the great strategy articles I have read I was shocked with this.
      Not only PS recommends raising 22 from UTG in a 6max game, all poker forums recommend it.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      I think I can't open fold pocket pairs 6max... and open limping is no no. Raisy daisy!!. Btw In this spot I don't really find a difference between 44 and 22 since you will rarely go to showdown without your set.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      And if you give me 22 or AT in UTG at 6max table and ask which one i want more i choose 22 any day..
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      How do you get ypur numbers from? Why is 44 break even?

      If you play a very tight style you can fold a hand like 22 in UTG, but that has nothing to do with the probability of playing it profitable. I don't have a big enough samplesize, but maybe someone, who is a good player, can post how he does with 22 in UTG.
      I do recommend to raise any pocket from any position first in as a standard. There are tables where I'd prefer a fold, but that'S not the standard. We actually raise 22 from early because of:

      - probabilty of hiting a set that is rather disguised.
      - to be less readable
      - to take down the pot with a cbet if called (utg raise gets a lot of credit)

      And never ever open limp please, that's not a good play, for several reasons.

      btw: you don't have to make the cbet 100% of the times, especially vs more then 1 opponentn and on very ugly boards.

      If you just do the math and look at it in a vacuum you might be right. But NL Hold'em is more then just math.

      Best regards,
      TribunCaesar
    • vermoont
      vermoont
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      Joined: 16.05.2008 Posts: 34
      Agreed. But NL holdem includes maths.
      You can only really c-bet on a dry board, which will be a low % of the time, and then out of those %'s you will only be sucessful in an even smaller % of the time.

      I have a large sample size to prove what I am saying, but I think that you are hinting that I might not be a good player, so I will find, or work out, the mathematical reasons to prove my argument today.

      I also disagree with two of your statements here:
      - probabilty of hiting a set that is rather disguised. (11% of the time?)
      - to be less readable ( Then play cards with better equity vs. multipil players)

      With regards to what grimzor said:
      "And if you give me 22 or AT in UTG at 6max table and ask which one i want more i choose 22 any day.. "
      I understand why someone would want to have 22 rather then AT, because its a made hand, but look at it this way: Although 22 has a 51% chance of winning vs just AT, AT is much better vs other players calling ranges then 22. This is a vastly important concept to grasp to be a sucsesful player. Will write more on this later.

      With regards to what adr0001 said:
      "Not only PS recommends raising 22 from UTG in a 6max game, all poker forums recommend it. "
      This is simply not true. If a player is playing a TAG game he will be folding 22 all day, on the other hand a player leaning towards the LAG side would be fine playing 22 UTG.

      Will write more later, but this is what I got for now.
      Peace out
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by vermoont
      With regards to what grimzor said:
      "And if you give me 22 or AT in UTG at 6max table and ask which one i want more i choose 22 any day.. "
      I understand why someone would want to have 22 rather then AT, because its a made hand, but look at it this way: Although 22 has a 51% chance of winning vs just AT, AT is much better vs other players calling ranges then 22. This is a vastly important concept to grasp to be a sucsesful player. Will write more on this later.
      I dont chose 22 because its made hand. I choose it because AT is ugly hand and its playability sucks. If i raise from UTG and flop comes A65 for example - i dont know where i stand and someone who called might easily have AJ, AQ and have me in terible shape. If flop comes T63 - someone might have JJ and board is not very promising to give me lots of action if noone hit. There are very little boards that are good for AT. With 22 its easy - if i hit i can mostly play for stacks. If i dont i might or might not make cbet and be done with the hand. With AT you can get in biiiig trouble and have to play for stacks where you dont really want it. And when you hit set with 22 from UTG its hidden. Most players will put you on pair, AQ and that kinda hands. And then its a bit easier to get the money in.


      About being readable - if you only raise AQ+, TT+ from UTG its easy to put you on hand. Most bad hands will fold preflop and only hands with good implied odds and monsters will stay to play against you. If you raise 22 from utg then players will have harder time figuring what you have + they will have 2nd thoughts about folding AJo after your UTG raise. And that is a good thing.
    • vermoont
      vermoont
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      Joined: 16.05.2008 Posts: 34
      O.K let me try this again...

      With AT, you raise UTG, there are often times where you have hands where you dominate, example: A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, KT, QT, any of these hands.
      With 22 you are either dominated by any pocket pair or are a coin flip against any other hands.

      If you choose 22 cuz you don't know how to play AT profitably then it doesn't come down to 22 being a better hand, its that AT takes more thought. Then do you not think that maybe you should spend time thinking about how to play it more profitably? Just a thought.. You don't necessarily have to get your whole stack in with AT, if you hit a T, you can utilize pot control.
    • zhorzh
      zhorzh
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      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 65
      So you are saying that we should fold 22 UTG all the time ?
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by vermoont
      O.K let me try this again...

      With AT, you raise UTG, there are often times where you have hands where you dominate, example: A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, KT, QT, any of these hands.
      With 22 you are either dominated by any pocket pair or are a coin flip against any other hands.

      If you choose 22 cuz you don't know how to play AT profitably then it doesn't come down to 22 being a better hand, its that AT takes more thought. Then do you not think that maybe you should spend time thinking about how to play it more profitably? Just a thought.. You don't necessarily have to get your whole stack in with AT, if you hit a T, you can utilize pot control.
      1. No normal player will call your UTG raise with A2-A9, KT. Maybe only QT. So you basically dominante nothing.
      2. Yes, 22 is a flip against most hands or huge dog agaist all pairs. And? That only matters if you push it preflop. Thing is i am not even planning on getting to showdown with unimproved 22. And i raise 22 preflop from UTG and flop comes AT6 for example – do you think it matters that 22 is huge dog preflop against all pairs? I dont see how 22-55; 77-99 can continue playing on that board. And if those pairs continue playing on this board – even better. Make less cbets and take away their money when you do hit A or smth. It will be so easy to take their money its not even funny…
      3. I think i know pretty well how to play AT profitably. Mostly i raise it too if table is ok. But i take into consideration that it has bad reverse implied odds and play accordingly.
      4. Not much in pot control aspect you can do being UTG. You will mostly play OOP and will have no control over pot. So that is not really valid strategy to rely on.
    • rhinoneil
      rhinoneil
      Silver
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I dont like the pre flop raise with 22 UTG either.
      It only really wins if you hit the set or everybody folds pre flop.
      I think calling is better, even though it is very readable.
      Just because its readable though doesnt mean that it cant be profitable.
      Somebody hitting TPTK is definately going to be donating chips if set hits.
      Also, how do you deal with a reraise?
      Do you really reccommend building a big pot with bottom pair?
    • zhorzh
      zhorzh
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      Joined: 07.03.2007 Posts: 65
      Lets broaden the discussion to all small pocket pairs (KK and AA are easy to play ;) and not only 22.
      Firstly, lets agree that open limping (with anything) is wrong. If you want to play a hand, raise it! This alone speaks for a 22 UTG raise.
      If you open limp with pocket pairs lower than lets say 77, I could adapt and raise you with any2 overcards, as you must fold.
      If on the other hand you raise with any pocket pair, I can easily find a fold with KQ, as I do not know the strangth of your pair, and must fold to a cbet if I dont hit on the flop.
      Basically the only situation where you lose money when raising small pockets is when you get reraised or called preflop, but then I am usually glad to have found out my hand is trash for only 6 BB ;)
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      C-bets and implied odds when hitting a set > your math :)
    • hasenbraten
      hasenbraten
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      Joined: 20.02.2006 Posts: 3,587
      Unfortunately i have to say that i dont get your point of argumentation. I only can tell you that some parts are terribly wrong (Like by raising AT from UTG you more often dominate then you are beeing dominated).

      An easy way to proove the fact 22 from UTG beeing raised FI 6max would be a very big database of someone who is raising it - and is competent postflop. My current database due to some crash just contains less then 20k SH hands and therefor cant be used.

      I still would prefer to play 22 from UTG then ATo. Especially OOP the domination is way more important then you seem to believe, and its just not the case that with an UTG raise you get called so very often by hands you dominate. Even if they usually dont want to play a big pot since the hand they got has to be really weak if it doesnt even beat AT.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
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      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      just as an example:

      the hands I would call vs utg raise, that are dominated by AT are: 9Ts, JTs

      That's it.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      You have to raise 22 from UTG 6-handed.

      Villain does not know your holding 22, you might as well be holding AA in his eyes. All he sees is UTG raise which indicates strength. There is a lot of fold equity plus you can conti bet a lot of boards.


      Limping it in is not good since if you get raised and call villain can narrow your range.

      Just raise it, fold to 3-bet.



      Raising ATo on the other hand is a mistake because it brings you in much more dangerous situations then 22 ever will. It plays really badly on an A high board.
    • NiekamNeidomu
      NiekamNeidomu
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      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 307
      o.o
    • NiekamNeidomu
      NiekamNeidomu
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      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 307


      vermoont + Jennifer Tilly = perfect couple go for her ! and may your childrens make the world (AND POKERSTRATEGY ) proud !
    • slikec
      slikec
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      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      That movies is LOOOL :D I mean wtf is she thinking about lol. I thought you had KK :D Lmao
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
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      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      ivey's face.... priceless.