Pessimistic about SSS

    • ninjagaiden05
      ninjagaiden05
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.09.2008 Posts: 68
      Ive tested SSS for 2-3 days now and I'm wery pessimistic about it:

      when makin continuation bet with AJ, AQ, AK and flopping trash hand BS will still call with low pocket pair even if there is 3 overcards on board simply bcs SS has so little cash left.

      They either know that SS has 2 overcards making wery good ev+ calls(knowing SS has Ax) or trash calls(if SS has overpair, which is rare).

      most of the times when SS raises with QQ+ gets no action.
      When BS calls Ax they make ev+ call since pocket pair is>2 overcards.

      According guide should make continuation bet with trash hand with only one opponent, is this really that good?

      SS has alway so little money left that BS call no mather what.

      It is wery easy to get blinded away on tuff tables giving ev- needing to refill stack many times while on easy table once goes over 25BB one has to leave table, so easy table give 5+ BB while difficult table might give -10BB.
  • 71 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Hi, first of all i want to point out that i don't play ring games, i'm more of a tourney player so i can be wrong.
      But when i started playing poker, i played ring games with SSS and hated it too.. You raise with good hand - everyone folds and you take the blinds, when you get called you get called with even better hand most of the time and you lose. Soo yeah, i hated SSS too and started playing half stack (50BB) which seemed good for me at that time, finally got busted because of the lack of expience and disrespecting Bankroll management. So anyway, SSS is GREAT for beginners who start playing with bonus of pokerstrategy because of few things first of all, you get 50 dollars, it's your starting bankroll, at full tilt NL10 is the lowes possible stake so you have 25buy-ins which is nice, even if you'll lose it, you'll get pretty much of the feel in the game and if you can stick to SSS you will grow your "poker patience" and patience is the key in playing good poker. So few days ago i decided to have some fun at ring games with SSS again and i kind of loved it. it's really nice to play SSS on NL10 if you know what to do. first of all you need to get to the right table, there are so many shortstacks at NL10 (full tilt poker) and it is the place for you to be too! i picked the tightest tables that were available and joined em as a SSS too. sitted out for a while to get the feel of the tables and if players to my left were tight as hell i started playing. now from the late position if noone has limped infront of me i MINRAISED and most of the time got the pot uncontested as for the shortstack who is the big blind 10 more cents to pay out of position and with trash hand just makes no sense. if i got called and he checked to me i bet 1BB and either get the pot as he missed or get called, if called i stopped betting. if BB Pre-flop reraised me, it is kind of clear what his range is for such an action so if you have nothing you fold. few rules i used playing this way were simple ones like - don't f*ck with big stack, never change your bet size even with decent hand because then other ones will understand that everytime you minaise you have trash. And one more advantage of such play is the fact that bigger stacks who are ideally to your right sometimes will want to see the flop and limp or raise, if you have a typical SSS raising hand and get some limpers you raise again and even get called because they think you just try to steal again and getting called is the thing you want in this situation. do not overplay AK, AJ, AQ if you miss the flop - say goodbye, it's more profitable for you to keep on stealing the blinds and wait for other good hand. Anyway i wouldn't suggest you to multitable this way as now you play the players and not the cards more.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      BS is making a huge mistake by calling you preflop with a low pocket pair, he is not getting enough value when hitting a set and is crushed against your range. It's actually good when you raise JJ flop comes Q25 you bet all in and the BS calls with 33.

      just stick to the strategy and brm and you should be fine.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Pushing all in with jacks? Well if you'd be sure he called you with 33 it's good decision but after all it's just pair of jacks and it can easily be beaten and most of the time, you will when called in this situation as only complete moron would call allin with 33 with no set.. I don't know, i did not see many players that play so bad on full tilt. So what my point is that you'd better try to keep the pot small, jacks is not a monster hand and you don't want to play for big pot with such hands. I might be wrong, but it's my way of play and it seems to work for me.
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
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      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      Samplesize!!
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Pushing all in with jacks? Well if you'd be sure he called you with 33 it's good decision but after all it's just pair of jacks and it can easily be beaten and most of the time, you will when called in this situation as only complete moron would call allin with 33 with no set.. I don't know, i did not see many players that play so bad on full tilt. So what my point is that you'd better try to keep the pot small, jacks is not a monster hand and you don't want to play for big pot with such hands. I might be wrong, but it's my way of play and it seems to work for me.
      we are talking here about SSS .. if you have JJ on Q high flop on its a 3bet pot, it is supereasy push .. lets say there is around 20 BB in the pot and you are left with 11 BB stack (remember, it is 20BB stack and not 100BB) .. what do you want to do? play for pot control and try to check it down with 1/2 of the pot left? even if it is only raised pot I have no problems going all-in with one overcard on flop if the stacksizes dictates not to c-bet 2/3 pot size

      and you would be surprised how light they will call you, because if have short stack and they think they have almost nothing to lose. calling shortstacker's push and having just underpair is like standard on micro/small stakes cash games :)
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      SSS is very good for beginners and the bronze strategy works like a miracle on micro stakes .. if you don't think so, just keep playing and you will see with bigger samplesize

      if table is folding to your raises, then you have basically two options - raise lighter from late positions or the simpler one - change tables .. table selection is more important than most of beginning players think. you need to find tables with loose players that are calling you light because they are not afraid on losing whole stack, but they don't know that calling tight shortstacker light is the big mistake and in a long run they will lose a lot .. that is where the profit is

      of course on higher stakes you can't continue playing that tight SSS profitably - players will just fold and you will fight with blinds and rake, you need start stealing, restealing, adapt your range to your opponent, etc, etc., but as a start it is sufficient
    • phpps
      phpps
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 109
      I agree with dzejkej,
      I do believe that SSS can be and is profitable. With cbetting you cant always cbet with one opponent because people do notice that and will start calling you regardless. Although the rules are pretty black and white for SSS you have to remember to not be predictable.
      Personally I play SSS, BSS with no limit holdem, then i switch over to omaha pot limit for a bit, Play a SnGs which personally I believe prevents me from falling in to the rut of playing mechanically (predictable).
      Over the long range though SSS does work but sometimes you need to modify the strategy to the tables that you are playing, steal more at a tight table and tighten up at loose tables.
      And if people are calling you with trash hands then in the long run you will profit. Somedays i will get AA KK or QQ busted each time by fish calling with nothin and other days i will hit almost every hand i play regardless of what the odds are going in, that is just the way it is.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Well, it's situation dependent more,if player you are facing has no idea what he is doing there, then yes, push would be a good decision. But most of the time i see people fold to shortstacks because SSS is not somewhat huge secret, most people do know what SSS raise range is so they don't call with trash, atleast when i play ring games. Again, can be wrong as mentoned before, i'm not a ring game player. :)
    • Betawatchout
      Betawatchout
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.12.2008 Posts: 68
      hi, im also quite pessimistic atm about SSS. Ive lost $12 in 3 days and probably played around 3000 hands. The problem could be im playing 9 tables (lol wanna clear the pokerstars bonus) but i think i have lost most my money on JJ. its a hand that according to the strategy you should never give up but i dont think i will be going broke with it as much anymore. its a bad hand most of the time and is beaten a lot.
      I will try and anaylze my game a bit more over the few days and see where i could be going wrong.
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by phpps
      I agree with dzejkej,
      I do believe that SSS can be and is profitable. With cbetting you cant always cbet with one opponent because people do notice that and will start calling you regardless. Although the rules are pretty black and white for SSS you have to remember to not be predictable.
      Personally I play SSS, BSS with no limit holdem, then i switch over to omaha pot limit for a bit, Play a SnGs which personally I believe prevents me from falling in to the rut of playing mechanically (predictable).
      Over the long range though SSS does work but sometimes you need to modify the strategy to the tables that you are playing, steal more at a tight table and tighten up at loose tables.
      And if people are calling you with trash hands then in the long run you will profit. Somedays i will get AA KK or QQ busted each time by fish calling with nothin and other days i will hit almost every hand i play regardless of what the odds are going in, that is just the way it is.
      that is not being predictable! if you are pushing/c-beting every flop you are not predictable .. if you were checking strong hands but pushing ace-high thats another story .. if you were loose then calling your c-bet pushes will be profitable because you will not connect that often, but calling c-bets of tight SSSer is -EV, IMO
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by Betawatchout
      hi, im also quite pessimistic atm about SSS. Ive lost $12 in 3 days and probably played around 3000 hands. The problem could be im playing 9 tables (lol wanna clear the pokerstars bonus) but i think i have lost most my money on JJ. its a hand that according to the strategy you should never give up but i dont think i will be going broke with it as much anymore. its a bad hand most of the time and is beaten a lot.
      I will try and anaylze my game a bit more over the few days and see where i could be going wrong.
      3K hands is nothing, just continue playing

      and I don't see problem with 9tabling if you are following the strategy and not doing mistakes - if not, then play less tables and slowly add one at a time :)
    • phpps
      phpps
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      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 109
      @dzejkej
      If i see a SSS cbetting whenever there is one opponent i am going to start calling them with low pairs or moderate hands, sometimes even ace high on a bad flop. Especially if it is a rag flop. That is being predictable.

      Predictability (also called banality) refers to the degree that a correct forecast of a system's state can be made either qualitatively or quantitatively.
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by phpps
      @dzejkej
      If i see a SSS cbetting whenever there is one opponent i am going to start calling them with low pairs or moderate hands, sometimes even ace high on a bad flop. Especially if it is a rag flop. That is being predictable.

      Predictability (also called banality) refers to the degree that a correct forecast of a system's state can be made either qualitatively or quantitatively.
      sure, if for example I am raising UTG and my range is JJ+ and AK - which means 24 hand combos are beating you and 16 not, please call me with love pocket pair .. I will love it ;)

      And what can you forecast when tight stack pushes? That you are beaten or you beat him? Great! :)
    • Betawatchout
      Betawatchout
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.12.2008 Posts: 68
      Originally posted by dzejkej
      Originally posted by Betawatchout
      hi, im also quite pessimistic atm about SSS. Ive lost $12 in 3 days and probably played around 3000 hands. The problem could be im playing 9 tables (lol wanna clear the pokerstars bonus) but i think i have lost most my money on JJ. its a hand that according to the strategy you should never give up but i dont think i will be going broke with it as much anymore. its a bad hand most of the time and is beaten a lot.
      I will try and anaylze my game a bit more over the few days and see where i could be going wrong.
      3K hands is nothing, just continue playing

      and I don't see problem with 9tabling if you are following the strategy and not doing mistakes - if not, then play less tables and slowly add one at a time :)
      ok thanks- i still think the biggest problem i have is going broke with JJ but oh well.
      Cheers
    • phpps
      phpps
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 109
      If he pushes then i fold, if he cbets (2/3 pot bet) then i call with a rag flop and i hit mid pair.

      As well if you are UTG then obviously you must have a strong hand, if you are the CO, BU or even MP3 then i would consider.

      You gave a bad example, i did not say i would call all the time i said that if you always cbet then i would loosen up given certain circumstances, point being that cbetting can make you predictable.

      If you are BU and constantly try to steal, i call from BB with low suited connectors, you cbet i hit mid pair i would consider calling.

      Obviously it is case specific, my point is dont become predictable against a player that you have been playing against unless they are obviously a fish. You cant play poker completely based on stats.

      "Put yourself in their shoes before you decide on the best way to take their shirts" - David Sklansky
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Opening post and I are talking about basic bronze SSS strategy = tight ranges, strong hands. Of course if shortstacker is stealing, you need to adapt. And btw - I do not think at all that calling shorstacker being on blinds with low suited connectors its a profitable strategy. Restealing is.
    • phpps
      phpps
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      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 109
      i used that example to show that your example was pointless, i see i proved my point
    • dzejkej
      dzejkej
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2008 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by phpps
      i used that example to show that your example was pointless, i see i proved my point
      well, I'm talking about basic bronze strategy and profitability of c-beting, you are creating scenarios that have really nothing to do with it, so I don't see any point, but ok, congratz you proved it
    • Jaime001254
      Jaime001254
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 366
      i actually have stats too, so if you are calling me every cbet... well my range may change a bit.
      you dont have the call 20 odds to call my raises with 33 against a SS, and there i have a LOT of equity with my range.

      SSS is a winner, but every mistake costs a lot; also its very swingy, as youll be in a lot of coin flips when pushing PF...
      remember you cant win constantly in coin flips, and that makes the game very swingy.... but also remember that you will have a dominating hand a few times and that will make $$$$$.

      3000 hands is nothing.
      last day i played 3k hands, and do you want to see how swingy it is???
      im playing NL25, multitabling, with elephant w/o license (beginners mode) but it really helps... im actually pushing if i see a high pfr, high vip, and i may 3 bet AQo (and win against AT) but if its a solid player, low pfr & vip, i fold JJ...
      practice, practice, practice...

      3000k hands.. and in hand 2800 i was even.
      in 200 hands i caught some real hands and got payed (AA 3 way against AK and QQ), so my overall winnings for that session were 4.3bb/100...


      JJ, is a difficult hand for beginners. in sss you should raise it; push if there has been a raise before you, and fold it after 2 raises.
      because SSS is very swingy, youll need a lot of hands to see profit with all of them (AQ was -ev in my first 10k hands :tongue: ) but if you make the right decisions youll be ahead most of the time and show some profit.

      my advice: find the leaks of your game using elephant and posting hands in the forum, there's a lot there that isnt in the articles (like pushing with AJ+ directly PF when there are 3 or more limpers, dont steal too much, people sometimes believe that every raise from BU or CO is a steal. resteal with AJ/88+ in the blinds, etc.).

      also a lot of players dont pay any attention, you may have a 2pfr and they will still call you with KJ.

      GL with your SSS....

      SSS= super swingy sh*t...

      but it works :D