EV vs Position

    • CSB4Design
      CSB4Design
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.12.2008 Posts: 35
      Hi all

      I found something online that you may find interesting also.

      Its an EV chart against position on the table. I did try to edit it to make it look nice and pretty but unfortunately importing from Excel is not an available option.

      Should you want it just let me know and i'll mail it to you.

      Have a great Chrimbo!!!

      Position
      Cards SB BB UTG EP2 EP3 MP1 MP2 MP3 CO BU
      AA 2.71 2.82 2.49 2.52 2.74 2.78 2.8 2.74 2.88 2.96
      KK 1.89 1.73 1.72 1.69 1.58 1.91 2.02 1.95 1.95 2.1
      QQ 1.19 1.23 1.3 1.19 1.2 1.22 1.24 1.2 1.49 1.36
      JJ 0.68 0.63 0.84 0.66 0.85 0.76 0.9 1.02 1.01 0.87
      TT 0.37 0.35 0.45 0.52 0.43 0.42 0.45 0.54 0.5 0.56
      99 0.17 0.16 0.33 0.14 0.31 0.34 0.26 0.26 0.26 0.23
      88 0.11 0.08 0.2 0.07 0.15 0.19 0.16 0.26 0.21 0.26
      77 -0.07 -0.01 0.04 0.11 0.08 0.15 0.09 0.19 0.17 0.15
      66 -0.01 -0.07 -0.01 0.08 0.21 0.14 0.05 -0.02 0.06 0.14
      55 -0.02 -0.11 0.02 -0.01 -0.04 0 0 -0.04 0 0.08
      44 0.05 -0.1 -0.09 -0.06 -0.01 0.11 0.02 0.02 -0.06 -0.04
      33 -0.1 -0.16 -0.06 -0.03 -0.02 -0.04 0 0.07 -0.04 0.04
      22 -0.11 -0.1 -0.11 -0.02 -0.05 0.03 0.03 -0.06 -0.01 -0.12
      AK 0.42 0.42 0.47 0.41 0.55 0.51 0.5 0.56 0.59 0.62
      AK s 0.68 0.79 0.78 0.92 0.85 0.83 0.87 0.82 1.03 1
      AQ 0.18 0.16 0.2 0.3 0.21 0.32 0.26 0.33 0.31 0.37
      AQ s 0.59 0.51 0.51 0.59 0.54 0.49 0.7 0.66 0.66 0.64
      AJ 0.03 0.11 0.03 0.1 0.1 0.07 0.16 0.09 0.2 0.15
      AJ s 0.43 0.27 0.28 0.41 0.4 0.44 0.5 0.52 0.56 0.49
      AT -0.08 -0.04 -0.07 -0.02 0.01 0.01 -0.01 0.03 -0.01 0.06
      AT s 0.2 0.24 0.28 0.23 0.23 0.4 0.28 0.26 0.31 0.47
      A9 -0.21 -0.18 -0.08 -0.11 -0.13 -0.07 -0.09 -0.12 -0.1 -0.03
      A9 s 0.17 0.05 0.24 0.07 0.14 0.12 0.21 0.2 0.2 0.2
      A8 -0.21 -0.28 -0.18 -0.08 -0.1 -0.09 -0.08 -0.17 -0.06 -0.09
      A8 s -0.02 -0.13 0.12 0.03 0.18 0.07 0.08 0.03 0.11 0.15
      A7 -0.22 -0.26 -0.14 -0.12 -0.11 -0.12 -0.15 -0.1 -0.1 -0.05
      A7 s -0.06 -0.05 0.03 0.13 -0.01 0.09 0.27 0.1 0.01 0.07
      A6 -0.29 -0.27 -0.18 -0.15 -0.12 -0.11 -0.13 -0.1 -0.13 -0.1
      A6 s 0.01 -0.15 -0.14 0.05 -0.04 0.01 0.06 -0.04 0.01 0.01
      A5 -0.25 -0.3 -0.12 -0.15 -0.12 -0.15 -0.12 -0.11 -0.08 -0.12
      A5 s 0.13 0.02 0.09 0.06 -0.02 0.08 0.02 0.02 0.19 0.18
      A4 -0.26 -0.3 -0.12 -0.11 -0.15 -0.13 -0.08 -0.1 -0.1 -0.1
      A4 s -0.03 -0.06 0.03 0.04 0.06 0.05 0.19 0.03 0.18 0.08
      A3 -0.28 -0.34 -0.17 -0.11 -0.12 -0.12 -0.09 -0.11 -0.12 -0.1
      A3 s -0.12 0.02 -0.06 0.07 0.1 -0.08 -0.08 0.12 0.01 0.04
      A2 -0.28 -0.35 -0.16 -0.14 -0.15 -0.15 -0.13 -0.09 -0.06 -0.14
      A2 s -0.12 -0.14 -0.01 -0.03 0.06 0.03 0.03 -0.1 0 0.12
      KQ 0.02 -0.01 0.05 0.16 0.08 0.09 0.13 0.15 0.15 0.17
      KQ s 0.38 0.18 0.4 0.31 0.35 0.28 0.41 0.45 0.39 0.42
      KJ -0.08 -0.16 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03 -0.04 0.05 0.01 0.08 0.06
      KJ s 0.17 0.12 0.15 0.28 0.32 0.22 0.23 0.28 0.28 0.4
      KT -0.2 -0.16 -0.08 -0.09 -0.05 -0.06 -0.05 -0.04 0.01 0.07
      KT s 0.16 0.02 0.11 0.2 0.16 0.1 0.27 0.07 0.09 0.3
      K9 -0.26 -0.21 -0.12 -0.1 -0.09 -0.11 -0.09 -0.1 -0.06 -0.05
      K9 s -0.07 -0.03 -0.05 0.06 0.15 0.04 0.02 0.07 0.1 0.03
      K8 -0.27 -0.28 -0.13 -0.09 -0.09 -0.06 -0.08 -0.07 -0.06 -0.08
      K8 s -0.09 -0.11 -0.03 -0.01 -0.03 0.01 -0.1 0.08 0 0
      K7 -0.26 -0.31 -0.13 -0.1 -0.07 -0.07 -0.09 -0.06 -0.05 -0.04
      K7 s -0.07 -0.12 -0.08 -0.03 0.14 -0.03 -0.04 -0.03 0.04 -0.01
      K6 -0.26 -0.32 -0.1 -0.05 -0.07 -0.06 -0.07 -0.06 -0.07 -0.07
      K6 s -0.16 -0.16 -0.1 0.02 -0.03 -0.08 -0.06 0.07 0.01 -0.02
      K5 -0.28 -0.34 -0.11 -0.08 -0.07 -0.09 -0.07 -0.08 -0.09 -0.03
      K5 s -0.21 -0.13 -0.06 -0.04 -0.05 -0.01 0.01 -0.09 0.01 -0.01
      K4 -0.3 -0.37 -0.11 -0.08 -0.07 -0.06 -0.08 -0.07 -0.06 0.01
      K4 s -0.16 -0.07 -0.09 -0.09 0.04 -0.04 -0.08 -0.05 -0.04 -0.1
      K3 -0.28 -0.37 -0.13 -0.07 -0.07 -0.07 -0.08 -0.06 -0.06 -0.05
      K3 s -0.11 -0.12 -0.09 -0.12 -0.1 -0.02 -0.09 -0.01 -0.09 -0.05
      K2 -0.27 -0.37 -0.11 -0.06 -0.06 -0.07 -0.07 -0.05 -0.05 -0.06
      K2 s -0.15 -0.22 -0.16 -0.03 -0.07 -0.09 -0.1 -0.05 0 -0.12
      QJ -0.09 -0.12 -0.11 -0.08 0 -0.09 0.03 -0.02 0.03 0.02
      QJ s 0.18 0.07 0.16 0.1 0.17 0.31 0.1 0.2 0.36 0.24
      QT -0.17 -0.16 -0.1 -0.07 -0.05 -0.09 -0.12 -0.02 -0.03 0.02
      QT s 0.01 -0.02 0.04 0.11 0.13 0.03 0.15 0.14 0.13 0.07
      Q9 -0.25 -0.22 -0.11 -0.11 -0.05 -0.09 -0.08 -0.04 -0.06 -0.06
      Q9 s -0.07 -0.12 -0.05 0.13 0.07 0.06 -0.07 -0.01 -0.01 0
      Q8 -0.27 -0.3 -0.11 -0.1 -0.08 -0.09 -0.02 -0.07 -0.05 -0.07
      Q8 s -0.1 -0.18 -0.07 -0.07 -0.12 0.01 0.02 -0.05 -0.08 0.02
      Q7 -0.29 -0.33 -0.11 -0.07 -0.06 -0.07 -0.05 -0.06 -0.07 -0.05
      Q7 s -0.18 -0.17 -0.04 -0.13 -0.1 -0.09 -0.03 -0.04 -0.07 0.04
      Q6 -0.28 -0.38 -0.11 -0.07 -0.06 -0.06 -0.05 -0.05 -0.04 -0.07
      Q6 s -0.21 -0.14 -0.17 -0.11 -0.05 -0.14 -0.03 -0.07 -0.03 -0.03
      Q5 -0.31 -0.39 -0.11 -0.07 -0.04 -0.05 -0.03 -0.05 -0.04 -0.05
      Q5 s -0.22 -0.14 -0.02 -0.02 -0.09 -0.04 -0.05 -0.12 -0.05 -0.09
      Q4 -0.27 -0.4 -0.08 -0.05 -0.03 -0.04 -0.05 -0.04 -0.03 -0.05
      Q4 s -0.19 -0.24 -0.09 -0.12 -0.11 -0.13 -0.08 -0.02 -0.05 -0.07
      Q3 -0.27 -0.34 -0.12 -0.03 -0.05 -0.03 -0.05 -0.05 -0.04 -0.05
      Q3 s -0.27 -0.33 -0.01 -0.13 -0.08 -0.01 -0.07 -0.14 -0.13 0.01
      Q2 -0.31 -0.41 -0.11 -0.05 -0.05 -0.05 -0.05 -0.04 -0.04 -0.04
      Q2 s -0.29 -0.24 -0.11 -0.09 -0.11 -0.11 -0.05 -0.12 -0.1 -0.07
      JT -0.21 -0.19 -0.13 -0.1 -0.02 -0.07 -0.02 0.01 -0.03 -0.01
      JT s 0.07 0.02 -0.04 0.09 0.02 0.14 0.16 0.13 0.19 0.15
      J9 -0.21 -0.27 -0.16 -0.08 -0.07 -0.08 -0.1 -0.09 -0.08 -0.06
      J9 s -0.03 -0.12 -0.1 -0.04 -0.09 -0.02 -0.01 0 0.06 0.19
      J8 -0.27 -0.26 -0.08 -0.08 -0.07 -0.07 -0.09 -0.04 -0.06 -0.06
      J8 s -0.09 -0.23 -0.06 -0.19 -0.12 -0.03 -0.05 0.02 -0.01 -0.02
      J7 -0.28 -0.34 -0.1 -0.07 -0.07 -0.04 -0.05 -0.04 -0.05 -0.05
      J7 s -0.15 -0.23 -0.12 -0.01 -0.01 -0.11 -0.06 -0.07 -0.01 -0.07
      J6 -0.28 -0.37 -0.07 -0.06 -0.05 -0.04 -0.04 -0.04 -0.04 -0.04
      J6 s -0.2 -0.27 -0.18 -0.11 -0.16 -0.05 -0.03 -0.07 -0.07 0
      J5 -0.28 -0.38 -0.11 -0.05 -0.06 -0.05 -0.05 -0.03 -0.05 -0.03
      J5 s -0.26 -0.22 -0.18 -0.06 -0.09 -0.1 -0.14 -0.17 -0.08 -0.11
      J4 -0.27 -0.38 -0.1 -0.04 -0.05 -0.04 -0.03 -0.04 -0.03 -0.04
      J4 s -0.27 -0.2 -0.09 -0.03 -0.12 -0.04 -0.06 -0.1 0.06 -0.08
      J3 -0.28 -0.43 -0.12 -0.05 -0.03 -0.03 -0.04 -0.03 -0.03 -0.03
      J3 s -0.27 -0.31 -0.09 -0.06 -0.1 -0.14 -0.11 -0.07 -0.1 -0.03
      J2 -0.28 -0.43 -0.09 -0.04 -0.04 -0.03 -0.04 -0.03 -0.02 -0.04
      J2 s -0.28 -0.31 -0.12 -0.12 -0.09 -0.07 -0.01 -0.08 -0.1 -0.11
      T9 -0.13 -0.31 -0.09 -0.07 -0.08 -0.07 -0.07 -0.09 -0.05 -0.06
      T9 s -0.06 -0.11 -0.06 -0.02 0.1 -0.1 0.06 0.03 0.04 0.1
      T8 -0.25 -0.29 -0.11 -0.06 -0.04 -0.06 -0.04 -0.05 -0.04 -0.05
      T8 s -0.14 -0.16 -0.02 -0.08 0 0 0.04 0.04 0.07 0.08
      T7 -0.26 -0.33 -0.07 -0.04 -0.02 -0.03 -0.01 -0.05 -0.03 -0.03
      T7 s -0.17 -0.13 -0.13 -0.07 -0.04 -0.06 -0.09 0.04 0.06 -0.09
      T6 -0.31 -0.36 -0.1 -0.04 -0.02 -0.01 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03
      T6 s -0.2 -0.32 -0.15 -0.12 -0.12 -0.06 -0.12 -0.07 -0.07 -0.04
      T5 -0.29 -0.39 -0.09 -0.03 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02
      T5 s -0.29 -0.22 -0.1 -0.07 0.01 -0.1 -0.06 -0.01 -0.03 -0.08
      T4 -0.27 -0.4 -0.09 -0.03 -0.02 0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01
      T4 s -0.25 -0.34 -0.12 -0.08 -0.08 -0.06 -0.12 -0.13 -0.05 -0.06
      T3 -0.28 -0.41 -0.09 -0.03 -0.03 -0.01 -0.01 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02
      T3 s -0.24 -0.3 -0.11 -0.08 -0.04 -0.04 -0.03 -0.05 -0.04 -0.12
      T2 -0.28 -0.42 -0.1 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01
      T2 s -0.29 -0.3 -0.12 -0.1 -0.08 -0.07 -0.07 -0.09 -0.06 -0.1
      98 -0.18 -0.32 -0.1 -0.07 -0.08 -0.05 -0.08 -0.05 -0.04 -0.09
      98 s -0.03 -0.17 -0.11 -0.06 -0.15 -0.11 0.03 0.06 0.04 0.08
      97 -0.22 -0.32 -0.09 -0.03 -0.04 -0.04 -0.02 -0.03 -0.05 -0.06
      97 s -0.17 -0.12 0.05 -0.08 -0.04 0.05 -0.08 -0.02 -0.14 0.04
      96 -0.29 -0.34 -0.09 -0.04 -0.02 -0.03 -0.04 -0.04 -0.02 -0.03
      96 s -0.18 -0.22 -0.13 -0.1 -0.08 -0.08 -0.07 -0.09 -0.09 -0.04
      95 -0.27 -0.39 -0.08 -0.04 -0.02 -0.02 -0.04 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03
      95 s -0.22 -0.29 -0.12 -0.09 -0.1 -0.1 -0.08 -0.07 -0.08 -0.08
      94 -0.28 -0.43 -0.09 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 0.01 -0.02
      94 s -0.29 -0.38 -0.11 -0.1 -0.08 -0.05 -0.08 -0.07 -0.12 -0.07
      93 -0.26 -0.41 -0.08 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02
      93 s -0.17 -0.39 -0.11 -0.07 -0.06 -0.16 -0.1 -0.03 -0.09 -0.09
      92 -0.26 -0.39 -0.08 -0.02 0.01 -0.01 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01
      92 s -0.22 -0.34 -0.11 -0.07 -0.1 -0.09 -0.11 -0.11 -0.08 -0.09
      87 -0.23 -0.32 -0.13 -0.08 -0.08 -0.08 -0.06 -0.08 -0.09 -0.08
      87 s -0.16 -0.19 0.11 -0.01 -0.08 -0.05 -0.01 -0.08 0 0.02
      86 -0.25 -0.3 -0.09 -0.03 -0.05 -0.03 -0.04 -0.03 -0.03 -0.02
      86 s -0.17 -0.22 -0.04 -0.09 -0.09 -0.07 -0.03 -0.05 -0.02 0
      85 -0.25 -0.37 -0.07 -0.04 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 0 -0.02 -0.02
      85 s -0.23 -0.28 -0.11 -0.1 -0.04 -0.1 -0.11 -0.05 -0.11 -0.03
      84 -0.28 -0.38 -0.08 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02
      84 s -0.19 -0.29 -0.12 -0.09 -0.1 -0.1 -0.08 -0.08 -0.15 -0.15
      83 -0.29 -0.41 -0.08 -0.04 -0.01 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01
      83 s -0.25 -0.31 -0.13 -0.08 -0.08 -0.09 -0.11 -0.06 -0.09 -0.12
      82 -0.27 -0.4 -0.08 0.02 -0.01 -0.01 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01
      82 s -0.25 -0.35 -0.16 -0.08 -0.09 -0.08 -0.07 -0.06 0.06 -0.03
      76 -0.25 -0.32 -0.07 -0.07 -0.04 -0.01 -0.06 -0.03 -0.02 -0.05
      76 s -0.17 -0.1 -0.04 -0.03 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 0.03 0.01 0.14
      75 -0.27 -0.35 -0.07 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03
      75 s -0.17 -0.25 -0.14 -0.08 -0.03 -0.06 -0.1 -0.05 -0.08 0.07
      74 -0.27 -0.38 -0.07 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02
      74 s -0.17 -0.24 -0.1 -0.1 -0.08 0.07 -0.06 -0.04 0.04 -0.07
      73 -0.26 -0.42 -0.08 -0.03 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01 -0.02 0 -0.01
      73 s -0.27 -0.33 -0.12 -0.1 -0.07 -0.1 -0.05 -0.08 -0.1 -0.08
      72 -0.27 -0.41 -0.08 -0.03 -0.01 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01
      72 s -0.26 -0.33 -0.13 -0.08 -0.08 -0.06 -0.06 -0.07 -0.08 -0.07
      65 -0.27 -0.31 -0.07 -0.06 -0.05 -0.04 -0.05 -0.05 -0.05 -0.03
      65 s -0.15 -0.23 -0.08 -0.07 -0.06 -0.06 -0.14 -0.02 0.08 -0.05
      64 -0.27 -0.33 -0.08 -0.03 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03 -0.02 -0.03
      64 s -0.18 -0.21 0.08 -0.05 -0.06 -0.02 0.04 -0.03 -0.01 -0.04
      63 -0.25 -0.37 -0.1 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.03
      63 s -0.21 -0.3 -0.12 -0.15 -0.04 -0.12 -0.07 -0.08 0 0.04
      62 -0.27 -0.41 -0.09 -0.01 -0.02 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01 -0.01
      62 s -0.25 -0.31 -0.07 -0.09 -0.07 -0.1 -0.07 -0.07 -0.08 -0.1
      54 -0.27 -0.32 -0.08 -0.06 -0.05 -0.03 -0.06 -0.04 0.03 -0.06
      54 s -0.19 -0.15 -0.08 -0.02 -0.04 -0.07 -0.01 -0.03 0 0.01
      53 -0.24 -0.33 -0.07 -0.03 -0.02 -0.02 0.01 -0.03 -0.03 -0.04
      53 s -0.24 -0.27 -0.08 -0.07 0.04 -0.04 -0.1 -0.08 -0.08 -0.04
      52 -0.25 -0.37 -0.09 -0.02 -0.03 -0.01 -0.02 -0.02 -0.01 -0.02
      52 s -0.21 -0.3 -0.12 -0.11 -0.06 -0.1 -0.1 -0.02 -0.07 -0.02
      43 -0.27 -0.36 -0.09 -0.07 -0.03 -0.04 -0.04 -0.02 -0.03 -0.05
      43 s -0.25 -0.23 -0.03 -0.05 -0.07 -0.09 -0.08 -0.04 -0.06 -0.11
      42 -0.26 -0.4 -0.09 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02 -0.02
      42 s -0.29 -0.26 -0.18 -0.11 -0.07 -0.09 0.04 -0.07 -0.06 -0.03
      32 -0.29 -0.41 -0.07 -0.05 -0.03 -0.04 -0.04 -0.04 -0.03 -0.04
      32 s -0.17 -0.33 -0.13 -0.08 -0.1 -0.07 -0.09 -0.06 -0.09 -0.09
  • 21 replies
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Can you explain how the person who made this got those values?
    • CSB4Design
      CSB4Design
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.12.2008 Posts: 35
      Apparently, the results were given by a site so they were real hands in play. Approximately 5m hands worth.

      I too am compiling my own stats on my own hands, i'm up too 1/2m so far and i'll building them into an SQL Db of my own, but i'm finding hard work when I change sites to parse the hand historys but i think I have it figured for PP where I am going to stay for some time.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      To be honest I don't think these stats represent anything.

      They are just stats from 1 (or more?) persons and they show what their profit is with those hands, but that only applies for their playstyle.

      What do you want to do with this if I may ask?
    • harleytopper
      harleytopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2007 Posts: 680
      Yep, looks like it is data from real hands. It's hard to explain why AA has more EV in MP2 than MP3.
    • timukasr
      timukasr
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 1,820
      Originally posted by harleytopper
      Yep, looks like it is data from real hands. It's hard to explain why AA has more EV in MP2 than MP3.
      Indeed... Variance perhaps.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      This chart is as pointless as chart can get.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Originally posted by Puciek
      This chart is as pointless as chart can get.
      At least your post was a lot more useful.
    • CSB4Design
      CSB4Design
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.12.2008 Posts: 35
      I don't actually consider it useless.

      If you look into these figures, regardless of playing style etc etc, they represent something very significant.

      Lets take a look at 2 starting hands that are similar, but in profitability, miles apart.

      KTo and KTs:

      KTo: From the blinds, ie where we have paid something they are profitable, marginal but profitable and from my own stat findings using my SQL Db this also true, but from all other positions, the hand is useless long term.

      KTs suited on the other hand is a very different animal. Profit across the board.

      I am not saying this chart is the law, but next time you are considering calling with connected, gappers etc that are not suited or suited that are not connected, it may well be a good idea to say, "Hang on, is it worth it?"

      Wish I could get the Yank Donks to consider this also.

      Merry Xmas
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      I don't agree actually.

      By default the charts pokerstrategy provides you with are a much better guideline for preflop play than just some numbers from other players.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      Originally posted by Puciek
      This chart is as pointless as chart can get.
      At least your post was a lot more useful.
      Following yoghi master in matter of usefull posts.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      Originally posted by Puciek
      This chart is as pointless as chart can get.
      At least your post was a lot more useful.
      Following yoghi master in matter of usefull posts.

      As for chart, it doesnt even say was it raised or limped in that position, so what kinda data is that ?
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Most of my posts are actually quite useful.

      I don't know, why don't you ask instead of just pointless flaming?
    • Solomaextra
      Solomaextra
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 7,401
      This is very good chart. It's from ongame network and is built on a very big sample size(millions of hands, maybe billions), ongame staff put this into web.

      So it's avergage player's EV, it for example may show from what position you should start opening 98s if you are playing straight forward and you are not too bad player.

      2 Yoghi, just think about it, it's the best chart you can get, it's empirical starting hands chart. It's always better than theoretical since it's impossible to say how profitable the hand is from what position because it depends on too many factors. The bigger sample size, the better this chart is.

      If we can get more of such charts it would be very useful(with filters for example), but I guess poker rooms won't just give this stuff away.

      As statistician I must say that this information is priceless, with only this chart I may check a hypotesis if I am playing certain hand from certain position better than average player or worse, with certain probability at certain sample size. I wish I had more charts like this.
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Solomaextra
      2 Yoghi, just think about it, it's the best chart you can get, it's empirical starting hands chart. It's always better than theoretical since it's impossible to say how profitable the hand is from what position because it depends on too many factors. The bigger sample size, the better this chart is.
      you forgot one thing: these charts were based on millions of hands played by BAD players! It's not like OnGame chose the best 15% of their players and made stats based on their results..

      just my little addition to discussion ;)
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      Most of my posts are actually quite useful.
      Especialy that one i quoted. (if you still didn't get it, making useless post to tell someone that he is making useless posts is great example of hypocrisy)
    • Solomaextra
      Solomaextra
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Originally posted by opal99
      Originally posted by Solomaextra
      2 Yoghi, just think about it, it's the best chart you can get, it's empirical starting hands chart. It's always better than theoretical since it's impossible to say how profitable the hand is from what position because it depends on too many factors. The bigger sample size, the better this chart is.
      you forgot one thing: these charts were based on millions of hands played by BAD players! It's not like OnGame chose the best 15% of their players and made stats based on their results..

      just my little addition to discussion ;)
      Lol, why bad? Average!
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Solomaextra
      Originally posted by opal99
      Originally posted by Solomaextra
      2 Yoghi, just think about it, it's the best chart you can get, it's empirical starting hands chart. It's always better than theoretical since it's impossible to say how profitable the hand is from what position because it depends on too many factors. The bigger sample size, the better this chart is.
      you forgot one thing: these charts were based on millions of hands played by BAD players! It's not like OnGame chose the best 15% of their players and made stats based on their results..

      just my little addition to discussion ;)
      Lol, why bad? Average!
      Average player = losing player ;)
      these are not the ones we should base our strategy on..
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      This chart says that if you play T4o in MP2 you win 0.01BB/hand, does this mean we should all start playing T4o in MP2?
    • Foxxxen
      Foxxxen
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.12.2007 Posts: 3,428
      FL or NL? :O
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