Playing QQ/AK vs click-it-back 5bets in Fast Poker Formats

    • MisterSnS
      MisterSnS
      Gold
      Joined: 09.11.2011 Posts: 1,671
      Hey guys, this question is plaguing me throughout the last few days.

      There are times in which I tend to lose a lot of money going broke with QQ (and AK, which probably belongs to the same category). I usually do not go broke with those hands when I'm sitting UTG, or in MP vs 3bets from the blinds and tight BTN/CO 3betters.

      But even in late positions I'm not really showing a profit with those hands. Let's say we are sitting in the BTN and we face a 3bet from the BB (I play NL25, thus it should be already pretty polarized in some cases, but in many others the 3bet ranges are still very tight). So, I 4bet his 9bb 3bet to around 22-25bb. He clicks it back. Hero --> ???

      Other situation: We are playing a squeeze vs. an UTG or MP RFI from the blinds. We put in a 13bb squeeze vs. 2 players and face a 4bet of ~28bb fromt the initial raiser. He probably never bluffs here (at least not on the micros). What is the correct play? To always fold AK and QQ and only continue with KK+?

      It's probably a broke with the dead money involved. But I'm usually looking into KK+ and players rather call their QQ/AK, even 3way.

      The biggest problem is probably the click-it-back 5bet though. It's equal in which position we are in, can we ever fold QQ/AK vs a click-it-back 5bet? The last 8-10 All-In's that went like this were always AA. Where can we make a cut?

      Maybe I sound like a huge nit writing this, but these are my observations on the NL25 zoom games on stars.

      Would be great to have discussion with you guys and hear some other observations on that topic
  • 2 replies
    • duder1n0
      duder1n0
      Gold
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 5,317
      Originally posted by MisterSnS
      There are times in which I tend to lose a lot of money going broke with QQ (and AK, which probably belongs to the same category). I usually do not go broke with those hands when I'm sitting UTG, or in MP vs 3bets from the blinds and tight BTN/CO 3betters.
      I agree, in UTG (and in many cases in MP as well) you are better off only 4betting KK+ for value by default, and call AK/QQ vs 3bets.

      Originally posted by MisterSnS
      But even in late positions I'm not really showing a profit with those hands. Let's say we are sitting in the BTN and we face a 3bet from the BB (I play NL25, thus it should be already pretty polarized in some cases, but in many others the 3bet ranges are still very tight). So, I 4bet his 9bb 3bet to around 22-25bb. He clicks it back. Hero --> ???
      It must be a sample issue, it's not hugely profitable, but it should be somewhat profitable, which means you need a larger sample to show that. But I think you're on a very wrong path if you are not going broke in late positions with AK/QQ for 100bb on 25NL...

      Edit: okay, i probably misread this, I guess you refer here to min5bets as well. I wrote this for calling off normal 5bet jams with AK/QQ, which should be very standard, but I think we agree on that.

      Originally posted by MisterSnS
      Other situation: We are playing a squeeze vs. an UTG or MP RFI from the blinds. We put in a 13bb squeeze vs. 2 players and face a 4bet of ~28bb fromt the initial raiser. He probably never bluffs here (at least not on the micros). What is the correct play? To always fold AK and QQ and only continue with KK+?

      It's probably a broke with the dead money involved. But I'm usually looking into KK+ and players rather call their QQ/AK, even 3way.
      The correct play is to squeeze smaller with 100bb stacks, 13bb is already too big, many good players would not call anything against this sizing (which would result in playing a big pot on the flop with low stack-to-pot ratio, and a capped range, it's a bad spot to be in), but rather play a 4bet or fold strategy against you, 4betting a balanced range (with a proper bluff:value ratio).

      Anyway, as you played, if you squeeze QQ/AK for value here, you should just jam against a 28bb 4bet, AK has good blockers, so EV is higher, QQ is not that great, but calling would result in a weird spot, being close to committed on the flop, so jamming seems better as well.


      Originally posted by MisterSnS
      The biggest problem is probably the click-it-back 5bet though. It's equal in which position we are in, can we ever fold QQ/AK vs a click-it-back 5bet? The last 8-10 All-In's that went like this were always AA. Where can we make a cut?
      I'm not sure, but between late positions I don't think it would be good to fold QQ/AK for 100bb, even against a min5bet, unless you have a read on Villain that he only does this with AA. But you need a huge sample for this, which you won't have, so probably just go broke, it's not a big deal, just handle it mentally, not go on tilt to play worse in other, more important spots than this, which really affect your winrate (this min5bet spot will not).
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      against min5bets: i feel it's indeed a bit more nutted but it's not ALWAYS aces, so i just think as if he 5bet jammed and don't think too much about it. i guess if you have some super huge sample size you could see the actual frequencies, but who really cares about that?
      squeeze AK/QQ vs early: if they never ever bluff AND it's always KK+ then well, of course you shouldn't be jamming. however these are some pretty strong assumptions, so be careful with that thought process. one thing you should always think about is how you are actually trying to get value with the squeeze (autoprofit? they call worse and 4bet better? not amazing but still more +EV than calling? EVERYONE CRAZY SQUEEZE JAM YOLO?)