[NL2-NL10] Nl100, 77, Sb

    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $20,00
      MP3:
      $27,55

      0,5/1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.65 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 7:club: , 7:diamond:
      4 folds, MP3 calls $1,00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $5,00, BB folds, MP3 calls $4,00.

      Flop: ($11,00) 9:club: , 8:spade: , 4:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $6,00, MP3 raises to $22,55 (All-In), Hero calls $9,00 (All-In), MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Turn: ($41,00) 2:spade:
      River: ($41,00) 3:heart: (1 players)


      Final Pot: $41,00

      I know, I prolly should have folded against the reraise, but here are my thoughts...

      ...the villain prolly thinks I missed this flop, 9 and 8 weren't really scary overcards imo even though this villain could have had anything and I also had the BD OESD.

      So, what do you think, fold w/o made hand?
  • 9 replies
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Tough spots are what you often end up in OOP versus loose-donks when you hold smaller PP's. I find these types very hard to fold to but equally hate shipping in 3/4 of a stack when possibly way behind. Here though after his limp and a lowish flop I might be able to fold. Pretty close.


      With only the BB left to act PF I don't even mind open-shoving here since villain's range is likely to be so weak. Not c-betting might even be an option as played for reasons already mentioned.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by Nunki
      With only the BB left to act PF I don't even mind open-shoving here since villain's range is likely to be so weak. Not c-betting might even be an option as played for reasons already mentioned.
      BB stats please :rolleyes: ?

      Shoving isn't that bad and wouldn't come into my mind immediately as I like the opencomplete with 77/88, KQ but you are mostly ahead if Mp3 decides to call your shove.

      A raise only makes you play this hand OOP with a marginal hand postflop.

      Preflop Push > Complete > Raise > Fold in my opinion

      As played, I dont think your 1/2 c-bet doesn't make sense therefore I either shove the flop or give it up by check/fold Flop or if he checks behind and another low card comes I'd shove the Turn.

      - Gerv
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $20,00
      BB:
      $20,15
      MP1:
      $84,50
      MP2:
      $182,55
      MP3:
      $27,55
      CO:
      $89,70
      BU:
      $101,35

      0,5/1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.65 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 7:club: , 7:diamond:
      4 folds, MP3 calls $1,00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $5,00, BB folds, MP3 calls $4,00.

      Flop: ($11,00) 9:club: , 8:spade: , 4:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $6,00, MP3 raises to $22,55 (All-In), Hero calls $9,00 (All-In), MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Turn: ($41,00) 2:spade:
      River: ($41,00) 3:heart: (1 players)


      Final Pot: $41,00

      Here are all the stats...

      There are few things that bother me with this hand... ...why would I want to push preflop with 20BB stack when there's only one limper? That's huge overbet and I'm not getting value out of weak hands, but losing to better hands(which is not very often:) ) imo. Shouldn't be better then to raise 5bb + 1bb for OOP and pushing any flop?

      @Gerv: I also remember you suggesting to steal against MP3-BU limpers from the blinds with A8/9s by raising 5BB preflop... ...shouldn't I play 77 same way?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by burek2000
      There are few things that bother me with this hand... ...why would I want to push preflop with 20BB stack when there's only one limper? That's huge overbet and I'm not getting value out of weak hands, but losing to better hands(which is not very often:) ) imo. Shouldn't be better then to raise 5bb + 1bb for OOP and pushing any flop?
      I play 77/88, KQ on SB passively but even that isnt the most +EV play.
      There is a 60.5% chance that 1 overcard comes that is a J,Q,K or Ace therefore it can hits his range (yours too but with such a fishy stat meh)

      I basically SklanskyShove this on the SB because:
      If you complete; BB can squeeze you out of the hand and/or postflop you are OOP and most of the times screwed

      If you raise; mostly the Mp3 limper will call your raise and you are likely to lose a c-bet postflop as one can see in this example, it sucks because you dont got position

      If you shove: It is not the most +EV play but surely +EV in terms of Sklansky Push and Value/FE. I will be content to pick up 2bb with just Sevens

      I play A8s+ different than 77//88 ;)
    • wuusaa
      wuusaa
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2007 Posts: 455
      Preflop nice

      Flop: bet - fold
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      [quote]Originally posted by Gerv
      Originally posted by burek2000


      If you shove: It is not the most +EV play but surely +EV in terms of Sklansky Push and Value/FE. I will be content to pick up 2bb with just Sevens
      Wait a minute... I thought you couldnt Sklanskyshove with limpers, only OPEN-shoving = sklansky. Or did I misunderstand something?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      True but I dont like to play Preflop 5bb, Bet/Fold on the Flop since odds are >50% that a J,Q,K or A comes

      I like to go into passive mode with 77/88 & KQ and bet whenever I hit postflop rather than to play those postflop

      But I do not judge these hands because I play on this limit so i am just giving my opinion how I would have played them

      I see this limper as a guy who is yet to act therefore:
      For other positions then the small blind, no S-C numbers have been defined. The rule of thumb to calculate the S-C number on other positions is: Divide the number through the amount of players that have to act behind you. This means nothing changes on the small blind. On the button you would have to divide by 2. On the cut-off by 3, etc.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Versus this guys handrange 77 is a monster and unless villain almost always folds PF open-shoving is going to be more profitable than raising 5BB ->open shove nearly all flops. Open-raisind to 7BB's or so will also be slightly more profitable than 5BB's too. When you open-shove PF your money is always giong in good versus his range which is always nice to know.

      I'd say that after raising 5BB's or so PF it can never be correct to bet/fold versus this villain. Check-folding the most scary flops might be OK (TJQ :heart: :heart: :heart: etc) but you can still end up making mistakes post-flop with this sort of hand. AK in this spot plays much better in that you will have more Equity when called even if you missed the flop.
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      i really dont see a reason why we shouldnt raise normally preflop here........its just fine


      flop is close , i tend to bet/fold against a normal opponent, but bet/call against this fish

      sometimes he just has a small pocket or A high....