What flop is wet?

    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 5,333
      So, the question is: What kind of flop is considered wet?

      Everything started from here: JJ over pair OOP

      The flop in question is :3c: :Th: :2c: .

      My opinion is, that it is either neutral or more wet than dry. My full reasoning you can see from the spoiler.
      I think categorizing flops on "dry. period" and "wet. period" is not 100% correct. We have had discussions before if the flop is wet or dry and in several cases I have said that it is semi dry or semi wet.

      I did some quick research and looked into 7 sources. Usually the term wet means that the board is highly coordinated and potentially dangerous. So what determines the wetness of the flop is the amount of same suit cards and the connectedness. Dry boards on the other hand do not provide many possibilities for drawing hands. This is also relative to villains range. According to one source there are also neutral flops that fall between dry and wet.

      One different way of looking at this seems to be if the flop is dynamic or static. This is kind of similar. In dynamic board the winning hand likely isn't made yet. In static it is very likely already made.

      The flop was 3:club: T:heart: 2:club:

      In this case that T doesn't hit so big part of villains range. Villain has many suited hands, he has 54s, A4s,A5s. I would say this board is dynamic and the winning hand likely hasn't been made yet. It offers some straight possibilities to low suited connectors and Ax hands and flush draw is possible.
      On the other hand there is one high card and two very low, which means that straight draws are not as likely as if the board was T98.

      I would say this flop is more wet than dry. But it is not soaking. I would call it semi wet, or neutral.


      Now, please tell me what do you think and why :)
  • 9 replies
    • axppp
      axppp
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 45
      i would probably said that with that starting hand and that flop texture is a pretty wet hand. Because lets face it if you have any A5/A4/any FD you gonna have to see more cards and with the JJ you are ahead of that range.

      In the end you problably didn't win the hand but if you manage to get it in on the flop you were almost 50% of the times ahead of your opponent.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      It depends on the opponents.

      But this is actually easily quantified, provided one can put an opponent on a range. Count their outs for each of their holding and divide by the size of the range.

      Rule of thumb: Versus a loose good opponent playing deep stacks, potential straight draws are more common than flush draws. On a :9d: :8h: :2s: board you'd have to worry about JT (suited or not) and 76s, and a number of gutshots and almost all types of possible made hands. That is plenty of combos. The same opponent is much more unlikely to play a hand like :Kc: ::4c: or :Ad: :4s: , so a flop of :3c: :Th: :2c: is not as wet as the flush draw suggests.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 5,333
      Thanks guys :)

      Yohan, I know it is not so wet.. But can it be called "Dry. Period" like nitrol did? :)
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      All I said is that it is opponent dependent, so don't hang me:) (For Nitrol it is superdry, since the only draw he'll have opening himself from MP is :Ac: :Kc: :D (Kidding...))
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      I read the other thread. Does it matter if you call it half-wet or half dry?

      The true measure is probably the number I quantified above or something very similar. Nitrol had one point that I agree with: Two-flush boards are probably given an "over-wetted" estimate. (Great boards for floating and bluffing when flush card hits vs opponents doing that.) I have myself probably played to scarred on two-flush boards.

      I recently reread the what-peple-think-is-super-outdated "Super System II", and got reminded about these nearly obvious facts. The flop analysis in that book is actually nice. But forget about the preflop advice... Another advice in that I always follow is that if you sit down in a $250-$500 (small-blind, big blind) game, you should buy in for at least $100 000. Also, if another man is sitting with much more, buy in for a similar amount (How else could you break him?)
    • advancedTN1984
      advancedTN1984
      Gold
      Joined: 29.10.2012 Posts: 2,113
      I have this idea from a pokerstrategy video. https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/38369/

      The flops can be categorized in 12 different types. We can divide those flops systematicly on one axis, high card and on another axis drawyness in terms of nutted hands.(gutshots, oesd,fd). An classical example for a dry flop is K72 rainbow. One high card and no flushdraws or straightdraws. An classical example of a wet flop is Q:sT:s7.




      But as is mentioned. The flops that are dry or wet can also be seen from the perspective of how hard has a particular flop hit villain or hero. In this case the particular villain hasn't hit this board at all. There are few people that have 45s in their preflop open raising range on mp. So for how far it goes for straight draws its dry and for flushdraws its kinda wet so this flop is in my opinion more dry than wet with one middling card.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 5,333
      No, it really doesn't matter if the board is half-wet or half-dry. But I don't agree that we can categorize all flops into 100% dry or 100% wet. In this case our opponent could have some SDs and FDs and he is not likely to have a made hand already.

      I'm not saying that this board is wet or dry. I'm saying it is not "dry. period." If it really is that dry even if it has a possible FD and it connects with the bottom part of villains opening raise, I want to know why.
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 5,333
      Some guys (me including) will open A4s,A5s, 45s, 56s. Those hands have a straight draw.

      So if we bet and villain calls, how many made hands he has and how many drawing hands he has? Since this board didn't hit him hard, isn't it more likely he will call our cbet with a hand that has some kind of draw? If he does, it would mean this flop is dynamic, but does it mean that it is even a bit wet also?

      I don't know if any of this is relevant. I'm a bit confused by all of this :D
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      Originally posted by la55i
      No, it really doesn't matter if the board is half-wet or half-dry. But I don't agree that we can categorize all flops into 100% dry or 100% wet.
      ...
      Of course there is a scale. The finer you are able to make it (while possibly 24-tabling, when writing in forums with Equliab open things are easier) the better you can play.