stealing vs pushing with Sklansky-Chubukov in SSS

    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      I would like to clarify the different situations in which you would open raise by 3BB to steal instead of pushing with Sklansky-Chubukov numbers. I'm going to write down what I understand so far from the articles. Please correct any misconceptions that I may have.

      The Sklansky-Chubukov numbers article says that hands that are easily played postflop should be raised normally and those that aren't should be pushed.

      With this information in mind, we can categorise hands into 3 categories:
      1) Premium hands as played by SSS (77+/AJ+/KQ)
      2) Sklansky-Chubukov numbers (e.g. A2+,K2+,Q6s+ etc etc)
      3) Stealing hands: Suited connectors (e.g. QJs, JTs, T9s - 54s)

      Let's ignore (1) since we all know how to play them.
      When our stack is <25 BB, we just push according to the Sklansky-Chubukov table - (2)
      When our stack is >25 BB, we do a normal 3 BB steal, with a range dependent on our opponent's fold to BB stat. we also steal with suited connectors even if our stacksize is <25 BB.
  • 10 replies
    • cindy1985
      cindy1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2007 Posts: 358
      I don't see it this way. IMO Slansky pushes are at their best against loose opponents. Against tight opponent you are better off using standard raises. So it is not uniquely a function of your stack size, you have to take into account your opponent style of play as well.

      Also if you only push unplayable hands, you will allow your opponent to play perfectly against you (since he can exclude the high part of your range). He could make good calls with A7+ for example, which we really don't want.
    • jmackenzie
      jmackenzie
      Silver
      Joined: 04.06.2008 Posts: 1,241
      From my own opinion on the matter of sklansky-Chubukov numbers, they are really only to be used if there are loose players to act behind you...

      The main reason for this is that if the bb folds more than 80% of his hands to steals and the sb isnt any looser, then it is profitable to raise with any2 cards and this doesnt include any flop play you may get. This is obviously of a huge advantage compared to risking your whole stack for the same reward.

      In some respects I agree with cindy1985 in that the player to act behind you may quickly realize the range of which your pushing and act optimumly, but I do not agree that they can exploit it. Sklansky numbers are designed to be an unexploitable system where a profit from playing these hands in such away is guaranteed in the long run.

      Too keep the loose players behind you from finding out that your main pushing hands are often quite marginal holdings, it is definatly worthwhile to mix premium hands in aswell, this generally helps give an extra edge to an already unexploitable system.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      ah i see. thanks for the explanation
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Originally posted by cindy1985
      Also if you only push unplayable hands, you will allow your opponent to play perfectly against you (since he can exclude the high part of your range). He could make good calls with A7+ for example, which we really don't want.
      Isn't the whole concept of sklansky-chubukov that those pushes are unexploitable? Meaning you could turn you hand open, and even when villain only calls with a better hand they're still +EV?
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      What it's interesting is that you can use these pushes even if you play BSS for TT+, AQs+ and AK. Even if you tell the other players that you have TT and they will call you only with JJ+, is still profitable. Very strange. ?(
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      not really :p
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      In NL Holdem Theory and Practice, the S-C number for TT is 239.821. From what I understand 239 are $ and the big blind used is 2$. 239:2=119.5 big blinds. So if you have under 119 BB you can push profitable from the small blind with TT even if BB only calls with JJ+. Am I missing something?
      Edit: TT,JJ,AQs and AKo are profitable to push only from small blind if you have a 100BB stack. If you are on the button with 100BB only QQ+ and AKs are profitable to push. But you lose a lot of value if you push instead of making a normal raise.
    • cindy1985
      cindy1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2007 Posts: 358
      Originally posted by viewer88
      Originally posted by cindy1985
      Also if you only push unplayable hands, you will allow your opponent to play perfectly against you (since he can exclude the high part of your range). He could make good calls with A7+ for example, which we really don't want.

      Isn't the whole concept of sklansky-chubukov that those pushes are unexploitable? Meaning you could turn you hand open, and even when villain only calls with a better hand they're still +EV?

      Certainly. BUT just because it is EV+ whatever you do, it doesn't mean you are maximizing your EV whatever you do. If you give up information you will certainly harm your winrate.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Why the article about Sklansky-Chubukov numbers is gold? IMO, they are very useful for someone who plays basic SSS on NL10 or NL25. According to basic SSS if you are first to act in small blind you should fold hands like QTs, KTo, KJo, K9s, A2o,22. According to S-C numbers these hands should not be folded. So if these hands are profitable to push w 20BB why fold them? For a begginer I think pushing is better than raising a normal amount because pushing eliminates tough decisions postflop with hands like small pairs or small aces. From the button hands like A9o, A8s and 44 can be pushed profitably, but the basic SSS says to fold them. Those who have just received their starting capital and are bronze members don't have access to the article about S-C numbers, so they will fold a lot of hands that can be very easily played profitably with a push.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      I think the main reason those artikels arent for the bronze members is that those plays are crazily ++++++++Variance