AT high vs check raise on semi dry flop

    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      I am trying to improve my hand reading, do i have this ok or can you spot some mistakes?

      The player was playing at 29/19 277 sample RFI-UTG 15%

      Flop Here i guess he bets all his value range, including semi bluffs and checks all his AIR range and plns to check call with his medium strength range, so when he check raise's he has nothing but air.

      Should i have reraised again though? What i thought was i can represent a stronger range by calling the flop calling the turn and betting the river when he gave up, i expected him to give up on the river, since its a play that i have just stopped doing, and i always gave up on the river

      Turn I dont think this helps much of his UTG range, so i call again, also i pick up an open ender. Also i think bluffing here looks more like a backdoor draw here, where as a call looks strong something like an over pair, 8x after calling his reraise on the flop.

      River This brick doesn't help him either, and since i beleive him to be bluffing over cards i fire and take it down

      What do you think of this play?

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $49.89 (199.6 bb)
      BB: $27.20 (108.8 bb)
      UTG: $138.26 (553 bb)
      MP: $25.35 (101.4 bb)
      CO: $30.64 (122.6 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $39.77 (159.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with :Th: :Ah:
      UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

      Flop: ($1.85) :8d: :9c: :8c: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $1.17, UTG raises to $3.22, Hero calls $2.05

      Turn: ($8.29) :7d: (2 players)
      UTG bets $5, Hero calls $5

      River: ($18.29) :2c: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $11.64, UTG folds

      Results:
      $18.29 pot ($0.82 rake)
      Final Board: :8d: :9c: :8c: :7d: :2c:
      UTG mucked and lost (-$8.97 net)
      Hero mucked :Th: :Ah: and won $17.47 ($8.50 net)
  • 11 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      flop is a super loose float esp without backdoor FD so you need to be very sure that he's imbalanced in order to float here

      turn: another pretty bad spot to call. your outs to the straight are really terrible. you might be drawing dead to JT, and your outs may not be clean on the two flush cards.

      Fold Flop, Fold Turn, and bluff river as played.
    • Eatyourpeas
      Eatyourpeas
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2012 Posts: 500
      You do not have to bluff the flop (I know he looks "weak" when he checks but some people actually check a proper range here [i.e they have a check/call range in their arsenal]).

      If it goes XX on turn also then by all means bluff the river to fold out better Ax (he is UTG so has these) and low pp's.

      Turn call sucks too. You have hardly any clean outs and could be dead anyways.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      I wasn't actually calling to hit anything, if i hit an Ax my plan was to fold to a bet, since he was strong preflop, he had a 70% cbet stat, i am trying to learn the float, as you can see i dont have a solid game plan for floats, i thought his check raise was pure over card bluffs, giving his 70% cbet stat i expect him to cbet all semi bluffs check call medium strengh hands, witch left check raise full of air, i floated the raise beleiveing he would give up on the turn or river and i can steal the pot, that was what i was thinking.

      I agree with you both its not the best play, but what I can take from this is, i dont really know how to float, so have a look at this see what you think.

      we can only float players that have high cbet stat, tags are going to check raise, Lags are going to throw in to many barrels and loose passive's are likley to check call, since a good tag shhould have around 55% we can decipher the tags that have this leak and can start exploiting them.

      So when we see a tag with 70%+ we should start calling more from the button or cut off what do you think about this range

      AJs-A2s, K9s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s

      Another thing to note is the players behind we should be checking the squeeze stats

      Now for the flop as you said we dont want to float total air, what about this

      GS+BDFD
      BDSD+BDFD
      BDFD+over cards
      BDSD+over cards
    • Apollos92
      Apollos92
      Basic
      Joined: 09.02.2016 Posts: 69
      From a game theoretical perspective UTG should check some of his strong hands here as well as his bad hands. Therefore I think that your assumption about him having air when he checkraises you is not always correct. Also he is out of position so checking the flop regardless of his holding is more common then if he had position. I don't like the call on the flop and on the turn. If you think he is bluffing why calling the turn and hoping to make the straight. If he is bluffing your implied odds are not very good and I don't think you will get paid off when you hit you straight. Since you put him on air I think you should raise him on the turn as a semi-bluff.

      In general i don't like floating unless I have some chance to improve to a winning on a later street. And as you put it yourself, you cannot assume your hand will be good if you hit an ace. So your only change of winning will be to bluff him off his hand on a later street.

      Is your calling range against a tight agressive UTG open really as loose as
      AJs-A2s, K9s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s ?

      Remember that 70% c-bet is not that high, considering the fact that he has a strong range. I still think your calling range is way to loose.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      Originally posted by Apollos92

      Is your calling range against a tight agressive UTG open really as loose as
      AJs-A2s, K9s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s ?

      Remember that 70% c-bet is not that high, considering the fact that he has a strong range. I still think your calling range is way to loose.
      I dont have a calling range, this is theory before practical on how to float, so your saying a 70% isnt that high, should i be looking for more 80% to float on then? that hand range above is what i come up with myself, i was going to call players that are float-able wider.

      If you think thats a bad adjustment, could you give me some more info why?
    • Apollos92
      Apollos92
      Basic
      Joined: 09.02.2016 Posts: 69
      Originally posted by FrozenElf
      Originally posted by Apollos92

      Is your calling range against a tight agressive UTG open really as loose as
      AJs-A2s, K9s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s ?

      Remember that 70% c-bet is not that high, considering the fact that he has a strong range. I still think your calling range is way to loose.
      I dont have a calling range, this is theory before practical on how to float, so your saying a 70% isnt that high, should i be looking for more 80% to float on then? that hand range above is what i come up with myself, i was going to call players that are float-able wider.

      If you think thats a bad adjustment, could you give me some more info why?
      Not exactly sure about what percentage. it also depends on what he will do on the turn. Will he double-barrel a lot, if he checks will he fold a lot if you bet etc. Well, the range you descibed might be ok to call with, but you should also raise some of your lower suited hands as well. Also you can call with any pocket pair. AJo+, AQo is also fine to call with even if it's not suited.

      But some of you calling hands like J7s, T6s, 95s, 85s, 74s I think is a bit to loose to call with.

      Try to float only with those hands that can improve to good hands. For example gutshots in combination with some backdoor straight or flushdraws. if you have a backdoor flushdraw and you hits your 4th flushcard on the turn you can often semibluff on that card if he checks to you or even raise if he double-barrels a lot.

      It all depends on the board texture. Try to think whether he did connect with the board or not.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      Floating twice and barreling river is a big move that should be done VERY OCCASIONALLY. This means you should pick your spots well. You'll need the added equity of having more and better outs.

      The same (but somewhat the other way around) goes for hand reading. If you interpret big check-raises as bluffs and small suck bets as being for value, you need to rethink. Sure, there are bad players for which such a read is entirely correct. But the general assumption is wrong.

      Big bets and big raises are for big hands. Big moves for deceptive purposes have a place, but they should be made only occasionally. (How to exploit players getting this backwards should be obvious.) That said, the river barrel was fine.
    • pisiattu
      pisiattu
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 01.04.2010 Posts: 12,352
      Imho when villain cr this flop he is depolarised, bet fold but i prefer check back rarely he stay cf this flop
    • molderz
      molderz
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.02.2008 Posts: 67
      i love to play reckless, but what is that 5$ bet on turn?
      yes you do have open str draw, but it is far from nuts straight also its far from nuts nuts in any case. I kind don't like the turn play because if You would hit straight You might be so behind, if You dont hit You are behind, what card on river You want to see to continio playing? even joker wont help there.
    • Titicamara
      Titicamara
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 87
      Fold flop. You have no equity in this hand.
    • DevilDonk
      DevilDonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.03.2009 Posts: 20
      Hand played terribly in my opinion.

        Loose call pre flop against his UTG opening range.
        You interpret the flop check raise as pure air, how can you be sure of that? IMO even his air hand have you crushed here.
        Turn call is too lose.
        River shove is ok i guess.