Raise flop with top pair.

    • Apollos92
      Apollos92
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2016 Posts: 77
      Should I have raised the flop here?

      PokerStars - $0.10/$0.20 (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: 7.6 BB (VPIP: 62.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
      Hero (CO): 14.9 BB
      BTN: 22.8 BB (VPIP: 65.79, PFR: 2.63, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 39)
      SB: 23.9 BB (VPIP: 24.73, PFR: 10.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 97)
      BB: 52.55 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

      SB posts SB 0.25 BB, BB posts BB 0.5 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 0.75 BB) Hero has 7:spade: A:spade:

      UTG calls 0.5 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, BTN calls 0.5 BB, SB calls 0.25 BB, BB checks

      Flop: (2.5 BB, 5 players) 5:spade: 3:club: 7:heart:
      SB bets 0.5 BB, BB calls 0.5 BB, UTG calls 0.5 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, fold

      Turn: (4.5 BB, 4 players) 4:spade:
      SB bets 1 BB, BB calls 1 BB, fold, Hero calls 1 BB

      River: (7.5 BB, 3 players) A:heart:
      SB checks, BB bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, fold

      BB shows 5:diamond: 2:diamond: (Straight, Five High)
      (Pre 37%, Flop 18%, Turn 15%)
      Hero mucks 7:spade: A:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Sevens)
      (Pre 63%, Flop 82%, Turn 85%)
      BB wins 9.05 BB
  • 31 replies
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Raise preflop!
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 34,580
      I moved the hand to the hand discussion board, because it’s fits better there.
      I would raise pre-flop as well and raise the flop for value as played.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      It is very possible that alk except perhaps sb would see flop and if So seeing sb the 3 previous to call even if 1 raises he would call
      So flop raised before or not would have 4 or 5 players
      With So many players a7s is good to play but not raised because almost the 1thing you can bet with confiddence is the flash
      With 4or 3 opponents if an ace was at flop you must call and without 7 or flash you could loose all the bets till river
      So call before flop is ok
      But at the flop and the turn i would raise and if i did So and 2 players stayed at the river and bb donked i would depending in my previous store with bb call or gold despite the 2pairs
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      Not gold fold
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      With one limper in the CO a preflop raise is mandatory. You want the button and the blinds out to play heads up with dead money from the blinds, position and initiative.
      With two limpers and on the button, a call is an alternative. Then you want SB and BB in for a cheap multiway pot with a drawing hand. Then be prepared to fold flop with much action, even when hitting an A (and no FD). Your kicker is not impressive. Hitting TPTK (like here) means you usually don't fold on the flop.
    • loveomaha3223
      loveomaha3223
      Basic
      Joined: 06.01.2017 Posts: 4
      You are playing such a low limit that I totally disagree that you can shut players out pre flop with a raise. Also, the value in A7 suited is when you flop a really big hand like trips or a flush on which case you want as many players in the hand as possible. As the hand played out I think calling the flop to evaluate on the turn is ok, terrible turn card to continue the hand and worse river. I think alot of low limit players fail to recognize you can't protect yr hand at these limits and what is most profitable is to capitalize on your opponents biggest flaw, they call you down way too often so just bet your big hands aggressively and avoid marginal spots at the lower limits. When you move up in limits you can worry about isolating opponents, proteting your hands,etc
    • GrindingNajra
      GrindingNajra
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.09.2011 Posts: 40
      Raise pre and rerraie on the flop. Bet flop turn when checked to you or call a bet like you did on the turn. River bet when checked to youu and call if bet by villain.
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      What loveomaha writes is critical
      In low limits you cant throw out opponents easy
      So sometimes with medium value hands not raising is better
      In this hand with vpip big numbers of button and bb it is very possible that they will call even if you raise
      A7s is a good hand to play with many opponents but with low cost to see the flop
      So before flop call
      After that i wrote at previous message
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      If the button and SB insist on calling a raise with 52s, that is good news too. By just calling you aren't letting them make their primary mistake, which is calling too much. They'd be making small mistakes, or no mistakes at all. This is not what you want.
    • arttuzulu
      arttuzulu
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2016 Posts: 88
      Yep, raise preflop, raise flop. Not easiest hand to play and emotionally..
    • ureyer
      ureyer
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2005 Posts: 1,875
      I think raise preflop is here absolutely viable, the stats are pretty much worthless after only a few hands. Overcalling is actually fish play; it is certainly not a serious mistake here but it is a bad habit.

      As played raise flop and raise turn.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Yes. Calling is fish play. The reason it is so easy to beat microstakes is that they play like fish. We don't beat it by playing like fish.
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      Generally talking call is fish play
      But at that hand
      Utg limped
      Lets suppose hero raises
      Button stats tells that he would call
      So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
      Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
      And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
      as bb will call for the same reason
      So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
      If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
      To bet or to limp?
      Bet is good if
      Or you have a good hand or if you think that somebody would fold
      Hero can see now at that session before and after that hand how many times these players folded before flop after 1raise and make his conclusions
      Myopinionis that he wouldsee few folds
    • ureyer
      ureyer
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2005 Posts: 1,875
      Originally posted by DAIMA2
      But at that hand
      Utg limped
      Lets suppose hero raises
      Button stats tells that he would call
      So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
      Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
      And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
      as bb will call for the same reason
      So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
      If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
      To bet or to limp?
      As I have already pointed out the stats are worthless. And of course it is (at least a tiny bit) more likely to get a fold from BTN if you raise.
      But even if we get 3 more callers: We have a quite good position and our equity is above average. And hopefully our skill is above average as well. :f_biggrin:
      So what is the problem of playing a big pot?
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      Originally posted by DAIMA2
      Generally talking call is fish play
      But at that hand
      Utg limped
      Lets suppose hero raises
      Button stats tells that he would call
      So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
      Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
      And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
      as bb will call for the same reason
      So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
      If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
      To bet or to limp?
      Bet is good if
      Or you have a good hand or if you think that somebody would fold
      Hero can see now at that session before and after that hand how many times these players folded before flop after 1raise and make his conclusions
      Myopinionis that he wouldsee few folds
      Brain-fart.

      If you see no folds holding A7s, you miss value by not raising. You very much want them to call two bets with shit like T2s and A20.

      Unfortunately, this forum is stone-dead, but only a couple of years ago you'd get your but kicked badly if you ever advocated limping preflop. I'm not that categorical, and I'd not see an overlimp with small suited connectors as horrible. But overlimping with A7s is truly horrible.
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      This hand does not play well except if an A or 2 77 or a flash draw
      A lot a lot of flops without flash draw as K82,Q63,j52 and others with a lot of opponents cannot be continiued by hero
      I.e
      Suppose that if you make cb and have 2calls with the first flop i mentioned
      That means that till river it is very possible that you will pass or loose if dont pass
      Perhaps with a pair of 88
      So youwillcontiniue with few hands
      So you want to see cheap the flop so you call
    • ureyer
      ureyer
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2005 Posts: 1,875
      Originally posted by DAIMA2
      This hand does not play well except if an A or 2 77 or a flash draw
      A lot a lot of flops without flash draw as K82,Q63,j52 and others with a lot of opponents cannot be continiued by hero
      I.e
      Suppose that if you make cb and have 2calls with the first flop i mentioned
      That means that till river it is very possible that you will pass or loose if dont pass
      Perhaps with a pair of 88
      So youwillcontiniue with few hands
      So you want to see cheap the flop so you call
      In a multiway pot you do not need to win too many hands to be profitable. The point is you will win big time if you hit because players who call a lot preflop usually call down with far too many hands postflop.
      Additionally you are not comitted to play a contibet if you don't like the flop. There is only one (or may be none) player behind us, so if it is checked to us with i.e. Q54 we just check as well hoping for the freecard.
    • DAIMA2
      DAIMA2
      Silver
      Joined: 12.04.2011 Posts: 60
      Lets see eguity with 4 opponents
      1 hero 19,5 % 2 Ah2c 8,8% 3 Ks8c 23% 4 Qh8s 15,9% 5 5c6c 25,2% at that hand 2 more spades and 1A
      All changes from the previous hand
      If we change hand 3 at Kh8c that is 1 spade more equity of hero is 21,4%
      If we change hand 3 at Ks9c the equity of hero is 17,1%
      If we change hand 3 at kh7c the equity of hero is 16,5%
      So with a bad ace at one opponent things areno good for hero
      Now nobody else has A
      We change hand 2 from the first hand at 2h2c equity of hero is 28,6% if the hand 2 is 2s2c equity of hero(eoh) is 27,4%
      We change and the hand 2 at 2s 2c and the hand 3 at Ks9s eoh is 21,2% if ecxept these 2changes we change and hand
      4 at Qh7h eoh is 20,2%
      Things are little better now for hero ecpecially if 2 opponents at least have the same kind of card lets say 88 and nobody has 7 and ofcourse A and there are few spades at opponent hands
      but you must agree that the result is that if an opponent has an ace even bad one if hero new that he must only called and with 4opponents this is very possible
      Now if nobody has a and hero new that from 1point he must raise because he has more than average equity ,from the other point hero with raise gives information to opponents that would be not available to aggressive play and to continiue play if an ace is at the flop or after
      So from all these as loveomaha says at low limits with no foldequity before flop call is the wright desicsion
      At higher stakes where opponents respect raises and there is fold equity raise is better
    • ureyer
      ureyer
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2005 Posts: 1,875
      You are playing against ranges not single hands. If we hardly get any fold the equity is like this:

      http://www.power-equilab.com
      Equity Win Tie
      MP3 17.59% 16.26% 1.34% { 66-22, A7s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J9s-J2s, T2s+, 95s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A2o, KTo-K2o, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
      CO 24.78% 22.61% 2.17% { As7s }
      BU 17.87% 16.62% 1.25% { 77-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, ATo-A2o, K2o+, Q3o+, J6o+, T6o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o, 43o }
      SB 21.39% 20.01% 1.38% { 88-22, ATs-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, ATo-A7o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
      BB 18.37% 17.11% 1.26% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AJo-A2o, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 64o+, 53o+, 43o }

      So more than 24% (=4% above average. This is a huge edge!) equity 5handed, good position and a skill advantage = raise!
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