Pot Odds calcs under pressure

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hey guys,

      Is it just me, or are doing the pot odds for a call (e.g. OESD) in SSS freeplay a major headache?

      That is, my maths is adequate for the calc but needs more time than I ever seem to have...

      Does this mean I should either:
      a) give up poker :( ; or
      b) practice and hope it comes with time.

      On a related note, when you see the hot shots playing draws on TV, are they doing the maths, or is it instinctive by that stage?

      Cheers,
      T
  • 7 replies
    • andyb43
      andyb43
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 903
      Easy.........find a chart, print it, put where you can see it and refer to it when needed. After a while you'll start to remember them.
    • ukwagon
      ukwagon
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 537
      I'm in the same boat Tim :(

      Can anyone point us to a chart to print??

      Thanks :)
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Sorry; I wasn't very clear in my original post.

      The odds themselves are ok. I have the chart, and that tells me, for instance, that if I have a flush draw on the Flop I have a 2:1 chance of making my draw by the River. Fine.

      What I don't think the chart can tell me is whether the size of the possible pot I can win, versus the cost of the call, make it profitable to call on any given occasion. That is, my difficulty is in applying the draw odds in practice, not in knowing what the odds are.

      Thanks again.
      T
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Originally posted by Tim64
      Sorry; I wasn't very clear in my original post.

      The odds themselves are ok. I have the chart, and that tells me, for instance, that if I have a flush draw on the Flop I have a 2:1 chance of making my draw by the River. Fine.

      What I don't think the chart can tell me is whether the size of the possible pot I can win, versus the cost of the call, make it profitable to call on any given occasion. That is, my difficulty is in applying the draw odds in practice, not in knowing what the odds are.

      Thanks again.
      T
      Hey Tim64,

      Calculating the pot odds simply requires a bit of practice. On most poker sites the current size of the pot is displayed on the table - so you just have to put it into relation to what you still have to pay (or if you would go all-in the rest of your stack) in order to get your approximate pot odds. It doesn't have to be exact and with time you will get better at it. (e.g. you can calculate what kind of equity you would need for a 1/4, 1/3 , 1/2, 2/3 or full pot size bet and then simply use these approximation value).

      You do most of the real calculations AFTER a session where you can analyse hands to check if your play was correct or if it was wrong.

      Best regards
      SoyCD
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Ok, thanks SoyCD.

      Good to know you don't have to be a Phd mathematician!

      Tim
    • Jaime001254
      Jaime001254
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 366
      rule of 2 is great, and memorize outs:

      OESD ->8 outs
      gutshot->4 outs

      if you have an oesd for example, you have 8 outs, then 8x2=16% is the chance a card that completes your straight will appear on a street (32% on turn & river) so 32% ~1/3...

      of course if you are 16tabling you dont have time for this, and you must learn to make quick but accurate aproximations... when you play a lot you can do that as a reflex... so just keep practicing

      and i remember a quote: if you are in an uncertain decision, a fold usually is the answer/isnt a big mistake

      good luck!
    • Ka0s
      Ka0s
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.11.2008 Posts: 722
      Originally posted by Jaime001254
      rule of 2 is great, and memorize outs:

      OESD ->8 outs
      gutshot->4 outs

      if you have an oesd for example, you have 8 outs, then 8x2=16% is the chance a card that completes your straight will appear on a street (32% on turn & river) so 32% ~1/3...

      of course if you are 16tabling you dont have time for this, and you must learn to make quick but accurate aproximations... when you play a lot you can do that as a reflex... so just keep practicing

      and i remember a quote: if you are in an uncertain decision, a fold usually is the answer/isnt a big mistake

      good luck!
      +1!

      I use this a lot too. It's only approximate, but close enough. 1 card = outs * 2, 2 cards = outs * 4.
      One thing Jaime didn't mention is how to calculate the needed fold equity (which speaks for itself, but maybe a good thing to mention).
      If you have 8 outs on the flop, the chance you hit your card on the turn = 8 * 2 = 16%. If you are allin on the flop the chance you hit you card on the turn or river = 8 * 4 = 32%. The true numbers are 18.18% and 34.24%.
      So if you push allin on the flop, you will win 34% of the time when you are called. To make it a break even play you need to win the hand 50% of the time. So you will need a fold 50-34 = 16% of the time to break even. If your opponent folds more often, you win money.

      Of course this isn't very usefull with odds because you have to convert % to odds, but it's a good thing to know :) .

      EDIT: I just realised I might be wrong about the fold equity and it may only be true if you're allin is a pot sized bet. I'm not sure, but I have no time to think about it right now, so maybe somebody else can comment on this or I will get back at it in a few days.