ICM Trainer Light/ push fold charts

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hi,

      I'm just getting started with SnGs. I have found a number of instances where the ICM Trainer light and the Push or Fold charts don't seem to give the same answer. Is this:

      a. because the charts are only an approximation and don't always work at certain stack levels;
      b. because I'm not using the charts properly;
      c. because the light trainer is simplified; or
      d. some other reason :)

      Thanks,
      T6
  • 7 replies
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      That's becuase the charts are not based on the ICM. Or if they are the model is changed a lot.
      I don't like the charts beacuse they ignore one factor which is at least as important as your cards, position and stack size. It's the stacksizes of your opponents. If you don't take those inot consideration on the bubble you can't make a long term profit, IMO.
      My suggestion is to download the ICM Trainer (the full version) and start pracitcing with it so that you can leave the charts behind as soon as you possible. You should aim for at least 95% correct answes over every set of 100 hands. If you can reach this then your winnings should be much better than with the charts..
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Lubor,

      Thanks; very helpful. I thought the mismatch had something to do with the opponent's blinds :)

      I'll start working with the ICM Trainer soon. However, could you tell me where is explained the principles for deciding what to do? Otherwise I will just be guessing at the answers...

      Also, do you think it is ok to start playing SnGs before I can achieve you suggestion of 95%?

      Thanks again.
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Well, the principles are kind of complicated. There is an article about it in the startegy section. Also the ICM doesn't really give you the answer to what to push and what not to push. It just gives your stack certain value in $ based on how many chips you have and what the payout structure of the tourney is.
      What the ICM trainer actually teaches you is the Nash equilibrium I believe. If you are pushing according to this your opponent cannot gain any chips from you in the long run. The best he can do is breakeven if he also uses the equilibrium. This is kind of complicated topic so you should visit some coachings and ask questions there where more experienced players can explain this.
      When training ICM there are a couple of things you should watch out for. First is your position. You can push more hands from late position than from early position, of course.
      Then your stack size in BB. The ranges are tighter with over 10 BB, get looser with around 10BB and get very loose with 5 or less BB.
      Then the stacksizes of you opponents. You can push a bit looser into opponets who have fewer chips than you do because when they call you and lose they bust so they should call you less often and you can gain chips by picking up the blinds.
      Then there is the bubble situation when only 4 players are left. That's when the stacks become very important. You can only very rarely call a push from someone who has more chips than you do, unless you are the shortstack.
      When there are 3 players left the mechanics of the play change again.
      I wouldn't really use ICM in the heads up if I were you so there's no need to practice it really when you are just beginning to play SNGs, IMO. So you can just set the ICM trainer to 3-6(or7) players and pracitce....

      Anyway, sorry for the long post but you will have to read and practice a lot anyway if you want to master the ICM..


      Have fun learning and good luck at the tables,
      Lubor

      P.S. You can play using just the charts but you won't probably win much and you will have to learn the ICM sooner or later anyway so sooner is better IMO..
      P.P.S. The starting hands charts for the early and middle stage of a SNG are pretty good so you should stick to those. It's just the charts for push or fold that I don't like so much.
      P.P.P.S. :D Watch videos and visit coachings. Those are great learning tools.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Well, first please don't apologise for taking the time to put together such a thorough and useful response :)

      I've read through the article and am starting to get an idea about what the ICM does.

      One thing it would be helpful to know is whether the PS ICM does the same thing as programs like SnG Wizz?

      Thanks again and I think I'll try to put some time in with the ICM trainer b4 starting on the sngs...
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      The ICM trainer and SNG wiz do something a little different.
      The ICM trainer teaches you how to play perfect against a perfect opponent. The SNG wiz is pretty much useless with the default settings but you can learn to play perfect against not perfect opponent if you know exactly what hands is he pushing or calling with.
      The ICM trainer makes your play inexploitable and the SNG wiz allows you to exploit you opponents if you are able to guess how they play. The better you are able to guess the bigger edge you can get. But if your guesses are not accurate then you can go very wrong and actually end up making -EV plays and losing money due to this.
      I play 12$ TURBOs now and I've been able to go without the SNG wiz so far. If you know the ranges the ICM trainer teaches well enough you can still adapt to not perfect opponents and push or call looser or tighter in certain spots. Of course you don't know exactly how much tighter or looser so you have to guess and it's not as scientific as when you use a program but even with the SNG wiz you have to guess (when deciding on villains hand range) so...
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Ok, that's helpful - thanks. Sounds like there's no real benefit to my splashing out for Wiz or similar just yet.

      Trying to build BR to point where I can play the 3$ sngs on Party by playing NL SSS (i.e. aiming for 150$), but currently suffering downswing (down about 10 BI over just a couple of days) and 150$ seems a long way off...

      Thanks again.
      T
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      No problem. I should be studying right now so I'm glad when I have an excuse to do anything else...