[NL2-NL10] AK call(all-in) or fold?

    • Shokatele
      Shokatele
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 9
      Well this is the hand...so i want advice please, wich is the right move? I play SSS but i guess you can see that from my stack size.
      As the SSS states i should go all in with AK if i get re-raised but i got re-re-raised.
      And the SSS also states that with AK if u get 2 raises before you, you should fold...ok i know i didn`t got the raises before ,i was UGT , problem is i don`t see the logic in 2 raises before you, you fold and 2 raises behind you, you go all in(due to the 4:1 Stack:original raise thingie).
      So now i`m confused...wich is the right play here?And why?

      Thanks in advance.

      GAME #1427110723: Texas Hold'em NL $0.05/$0.10 2009-02-10 19:35:36
      Table Wilkinson
      Seat 1: kirod ($1.90 in chips)
      Seat 2: vossan ($12.12 in chips)
      Seat 3: freix32 ($9.72 in chips)
      Seat 4: quasar777 ($17.06 in chips)
      Seat 6: EmJay1976 ($1.90 in chips) DEALER
      Seat 7: DanJKE ($1.88 in chips)
      Seat 8: frdmo12 ($4.07 in chips)
      Seat 9: JohnnyStu ($1.85 in chips)
      Seat 10: askl ($1.60 in chips)
      DanJKE: Post SB $0.05
      frdmo12: Post BB $0.10
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to JohnnyStu [DK SA]
      JohnnyStu: Raise (NF) $0.40
      askl: Fold
      kirod: Fold
      vossan: Fold
      freix32: Raise (NF) $0.70 <-Very strange raise...
      quasar777: Fold
      EmJay1976: Raise (NF) $1.90
      DanJKE: Fold
      frdmo12: Fold
      My turn here - Call or Fold?
  • 16 replies
    • moovet
      moovet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 157
      call
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Hi Shokatele and wellcome to the forums.
      To ensure that your hands are evaluated by experts, please post them in the hand evaluation forums.For SSS the link is .Sample Hands Short Stack Strategy | as of Bronze

      Good luck!
    • sabo999
      sabo999
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.06.2008 Posts: 502
      fold - your most probably up against QQ+ i some 3 bets a pot in that scenario you can be pretty confident your AK isn't too good..but as you Short Stack, it's not gonna cost as much to call and lose, tricky spot

      what did you do ??
    • sebalpda
      sebalpda
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 4,715
      Thats a call for me:

      Probably they both have pairs 22-QQ and in that case you have an incredible equity for a 60bb pot (in case first raiser calls, what seems to be obvious).
      Same if one is holding a pp and the other has something like AQ (ok 1 out less, buy still ev+)

      The worst possible scenario is: one of them holding AA or KK. If it is KK and the other guy has a non-A hand, you have a decent equity. AA: you are pretty dead.

      I'd call there.
    • Elzubiri
      Elzubiri
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.12.2008 Posts: 26
      do not try to guess what they have, call is wrong wether you go all in or you fold you dont want to face 2 players on flop 1 being pot commited
      since your stack is no larger than the bet fold
    • Shokatele
      Shokatele
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 9
      First of all...i`m sorry for the late answer.
      Thanks for all the answers and for your question...here is the rest of the hand.

      JohnnyStu: Allin $1.45
      freix32: Fold
      *** FLOP *** [H10 S6 S7]
      *** TURN *** [C7]
      *** RIVER *** [H2]
      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot $4.38 Rake $0.22
      EmJay1976: Shows [HQ SQ]
      EmJay1976: wins $4.38

      yeah...i lost it to QQ :(
    • h0lland
      h0lland
      Global
      Joined: 16.06.2008 Posts: 2,580
      Originally posted by Shokatele
      First of all...i`m sorry for the late answer.
      Thanks for all the answers and for your question...here is the rest of the hand.

      JohnnyStu: Allin $1.45
      freix32: Fold
      *** FLOP *** [H10 S6 S7]
      *** TURN *** [C7]
      *** RIVER *** [H2]
      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot $4.38 Rake $0.22
      EmJay1976: Shows [HQ SQ]
      EmJay1976: wins $4.38

      yeah...i lost it to QQ :(
      never think what can be if u.. u have to think about EV only!
      AKo after reraise we have to fold and it is EV+!
      if one of them have AQ and other (for example) have TT we have a very bad equty!
      AK vs QQ
      coinflips are -EV too ( we have there ~47% only and rake eat our profit)
    • RockEye
      RockEye
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      I believe according to SSS, we push all in after a reraise with AK, since ratio
      is 4:1 or lower. That means (our remaining stack : our original raise). So let's say we are playing NL10 and we have 2$. We raise 4BB thats 0.40$. We still have 1.6$ stack left. 4x0.40$=1.6$, thus our ratio is 4:1. It means we push all in.

      It's well explained here in basic SSS http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/822/5/

      Of course with help of Elephant stats we can adjust this push ranges. Against a very tight opponent we may even fold, but i never fold AK againts a reraise with short stack.
    • Shokatele
      Shokatele
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 9
      Originally posted by RockEye
      I believe according to SSS, we push all in after a reraise with AK, since ratio
      is 4:1 or lower. That means (our remaining stack : our original raise). So let's say we are playing NL10 and we have 2$. We raise 4BB thats 0.40$. We still have 1.6$ stack left. 4x0.40$=1.6$, thus our ratio is 4:1. It means we push all in.

      It's well explained here in basic SSS http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/822/5/

      Of course with help of Elephant stats we can adjust this push ranges. Against a very tight opponent we may even fold, but i never fold AK againts a reraise with short stack.
      Thing is i didn`t got reraised, i got re-reraised. Usually that means you are against something kinda strong like AA or KK maybe something a bit weaker if the re-reraise comes from a looser player.
      Anyway i`ll post the hand where darkonebg said and see what the experts have to say about this.
    • delete461
      delete461
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2008 Posts: 1,036
      Push all in. You are probably 50/50 or slightly less than 50/50, but you will more than double your stack when you win.
    • ilikepie
      ilikepie
      Silver
      Joined: 18.10.2007 Posts: 53
      According to SSS you raised... so you go all in on any raise with hands in first row or if u meet conditions of other two:

      "Your remaining stack" : "Your first raise" ratio

      ANY RATIO
      AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK
      superior hands
      hands that are worth it anytime PUSH PUSH PUSH...

      4:1 or less
      TT, AQ
      mediocre hands
      all in only if you meat this ratio (ex. you raise 50c and have 2$ or less in your stack)

      2,5:1 or less
      REST HANDS
      uncommon hands
      all in only if you meat this ratio (ex. you raise 50c and have 1.25$ or less in your stack)

      If you can't meet any of these you have to fold immediately or u lose money in long run

      :spade:
    • RockEye
      RockEye
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      Originally posted by Shokatele
      Originally posted by RockEye
      I believe according to SSS, we push all in after a reraise with AK, since ratio
      is 4:1 or lower. That means (our remaining stack : our original raise). So let's say we are playing NL10 and we have 2$. We raise 4BB thats 0.40$. We still have 1.6$ stack left. 4x0.40$=1.6$, thus our ratio is 4:1. It means we push all in.

      It's well explained here in basic SSS http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/822/5/

      Of course with help of Elephant stats we can adjust this push ranges. Against a very tight opponent we may even fold, but i never fold AK againts a reraise with short stack.
      Thing is i didn`t got reraised, i got re-reraised. Usually that means you are against something kinda strong like AA or KK maybe something a bit weaker if the re-reraise comes from a looser player.
      Anyway i`ll post the hand where darkonebg said and see what the experts have to say about this.
      All the same, doesn't matter if you got re-reraised, it's even better for you since a pot is bigger, so your pot odds are even better. You wouldn't believe with what kinda hands ppl push all in if they see the pot is getting big (like low pairs, suited connectors or even Q5s)
    • vhallee
      vhallee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2008 Posts: 1,539
      Moved to Sample Hands Forum.
    • ilikepie
      ilikepie
      Silver
      Joined: 18.10.2007 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by vhallee
      Moved to Sample Hands Forum.
      Excuse me, sir, but this is SSS hand :rolleyes:
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      AK vs 2 raises [even though one of them is minraise] is clear fold. read the SSS articles again.
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by h0lland
      never think what can be if u.. u have to think about EV only!
      AKo after reraise we have to fold and it is EV+!
      if one of them have AQ and other (for example) have TT we have a very bad equty!
      AK vs QQ
      coinflips are -EV too ( we have there ~47% only and rake eat our profit)
      Well, generally your ideas are correct, but your calculations (if you made any) are very wrong in this case.

      You expect them to have (as an example) TT and AQ.
      Then the equity od AK is more than 33.3 % (only slightly, but it is). Hence it is +EV to go for this. Because of the rake it would be slightly -EV if Hero had to call the whole amount.
      But he has already paid 4 bb and only has 14.5 left. Therefore he is risking 14.5 bb and the final pot will be 18.5 x 3 = 55.5 bb. Hence you only need 14.5/55.5 = 0.26 equity to make the call break-even (with 5 % rake you need 27,4 % equity, with rake 10 % (Full Tilt Poker has 10 % at NL10 I believe) you need 29 % equity). 33,6 equity you have against AQ + TT is more than enough.
      (In these calculations I didn't add blinds, which make the pot even biggere and needed equity of Hero's hand even lower.)

      In reality 1 oponent folded and the other had a pair of queens. Because there is dead money in the pot (8.5 bb) and Hero already invested 4 bb himself, he needs to pay 14.5 bb to win a pot which will be 45.5 bb.
      With the rake of 5 % it will be 43.2 bb, the needed equity is 14.5/43.2 = 33,5 %.
      With the rake of 10 % the needed equity is 35,4 %.

      The equity of hero's hand against QQ is 43,2 %, which is high enough.
      Against a range of JJ+/AK, the equity of AKo is 40 % (good enough).
      Against a range of QQ+, equity drops to 31 % where the call might already be -EV.
      If you had a read that the other shortstack plays according to the basic short stack strategy starting hand chart, he would only 4-bet AA an KK and then our equity is only 18 % and we might find a fold here. But since he pushed QQ, he isn't playing by the SHC and unless QQ is the bottom of his 4-betting range (being QQ+), the call was good (and it is a call according to the basic sss strategy).


      Originally posted by silent21
      AK vs 2 raises [even though one of them is minraise] is clear fold. read the SSS articles again.
      This would only be true if you didn't invest any money into the pot yet. Since Hero already raised to 4 bb, he is now commited according to SSS articles and pushes AK against any reraise.