Grinding Pennies

    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      Hello and welcome to my blog.



      About myself

      I'm 29 and i have been playing poker since 2010, with some 3-6 months breaks in between, I was currently playing NL25 6max, however I sort of had a mental breakdown with the game, i felt i was cursed and i was being robbed/cheated and online poker is rigged yada yada ya etc....

      So i decided to withdraw my $1250 and start from the bottom with $20, the reason for this, is because i have never really earned to right to be playing there anyway, somebody always seemed to stake me, they must of had confidence in my passion to play live and breath poker, i hope that starting from the bottom, i can finally let go of the feeling that online is rigged, if i build a bankroll up from $20, witch has been having a huge negative impact on my game.

      I don't believe that did any good for me mentally, subconsciously i probably believed because i had a bankroll for NL25 i was good enough to play there, I managed to have a 1bb win rate over 40k hands, but the same problem always seemed to reappear after a few hours grinding, with believing the games rigged and running some trebble barrel bluff, straight into a guy who clearly has something, or calling some guy all in with just a measly overpair :f_biggrin: .

      So now i just want a fresh start, from the bottom, with a new blog and work my way up like it should be done.

      So far i have been playing mostly 9 man, i deposited $20 built it up to $46 and decided it would be a good idea, to play omaha with my full bankroll after several lager's, sadly that didn't go down very well, so i deposited another $20 i now currently have $36, i feel much better mentally at the moment and constantly working towards the correct mental approach for poker.

      Here are my graphs that show my progress so far at NL2, My showdown line is a low probably because i keep calling raiser's i am getting used to 9man players just dont bluff like the do in 6max :f_biggrin:




      I took some aggressive shots at NL5 when i got to $50 i felt under pressure and made some technical mistakes, witch resulted in me dropping back down in stakes




      Starting bankroll $20
      Current bankroll $37
      Number of hands played 13400
  • 17 replies
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Hey again, FrozenElf,

      Well, I certainly didn't expect to see a brand new blog from you when I clicked on a seemingly random new thread, but I'm glad I found it.

      From what I read on your previous blog, I actually thought you were doing all right at NL25, so I don't think there is any reason to be too harsh on yourself. I do like your plan to combat mental problems by building a new bankroll almost from scratch, though.
      Originally posted by FrozenElf
      I deposited $20 built it up to $46 and decided it would be a good idea, to play omaha with my full bankroll after several lager's, sadly that didn't go down very well.
      Based on my own experience, I concluded that there is only one game they play in hell, and it is PLO.
      JK, there are actually plenty of people who do fine in this game and who like it because it is a bit more "unexplored" than Hold'em, but you need a lot of preparation before you can take a decent shot, and it's not the best game to play if you have tilt problems.

      Also, alcohol and poker don't mix very well. I recommend to finish grinding before you pick up your pints. There is a reason why many casinos are giving their drinks away for free.

      Anyway, let's talk some long-term strategy. How many buy-ins do you need for a shot at a higher limit, and when do you think is the point to move down?

      In any case, it should be an interesting journey, count me in.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      Yo harrier, im glad your still around here.

      Yeah i agree with you i don't think i was doing too bad at NL25, my mental game problem with "believing the games it rigged", was seriously making a dent in my profits, i would estimate it to be about $75 a night, i was making so many of the "stuff this game i call" moves, i think i had to do this, if i manage to grind back to $1250, i hope i can finnaly let go of this problem and play poker :f_biggrin: .

      I went out with some friends and came back drunk, at the time i decided to try and boast my bankroll, witch was kind of retarded, for a few reasons #1 i was drunk :f_drink: #2 it kind of defeats the object of what im trying to do grinding up the stakes to prove to myself the game is fair and not out to rob me.

      i was thinking about 15 or 20 buys i'm not really sure. What do you think?

      Session summary +$4
      Starting bankroll $20
      Current bankroll $42
      Number of hands played 400
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      There are several possible approaches to bankroll management. You may remember the basic PokerStrategy articles that recommend 25 buy-ins for each limit, but it is possible to take a more aggressive or conservative stance. Personally, I like to be more conservative with my poker money, but I'm in a different situation, of course.

      I'm sure you're familiar with the benefits and drawbacks of both methods, and it depends on how much time you are ready to invest on the lower levels and how much you are willing to risk. I don't think you should be too aggressive, since it would defeat the purpose of your new "Grinding Pennies" challenge.

      Even if you prefer the aggressive approach, I think you should never use less than 10 buy-ins for any stake. This should be the absolute limit in my opinion.

      You may have about "Tankroll-BRM" before, which is a super aggressive kind of BRM that was once proposed here on PokerStrategy. Here is the link, if you want to check it out. I don't recommend it for you, since it has a very high risk of ruin, which once again defeats the purpose of your challenge, but it's a good example of an extreme, but still plausible bankroll management strategy.

      Another poker school which I am neither going to link to nor even mention in respect of our forum rules suggests the following guidelines, which I believe cover the entire scope pretty nicely:

      Recreational players: 10 buy-ins
      Serious players: 20 buy-ins
      Professional players: 50 buy-ins

      You would probably be defined as a "serious player", so your 15-20 BIs approach should be fine.

      So what's your strategy about moving down?
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 255
      I am not convinced by your bankroll requirements for a particular level. I have played over one million hands of cash game at 2NL and 4NL on various sites. My worse downswing was losing over 26 buyins at 2NL on 'Stars. :f_ugly: But despite that loss which occurred over just 15k hands, I am a lifetime winner at these tiny stakes. I can also state that I was not outclassed by better opponents but was simply the victim of some sick bad beats, one after the other. So if one does not intend to redeposit I'd say 50 buyins is required to safeguard against variance. Also - Frozen Elf has a 1BB winrate at 25NL. A quick analysis of the variance for a 1BB winrate at 6-max tables in a poker variance calculator will quickly confirm that even 50 buyins is an aggressive bankroll. In fact, even with 150 buyins there is a 5% chance of ruin over a million hands played. I think Frozen Elf has done the right thing to move down. Her winrate, however commendable it is, is too low for her bankroll to cope with the extreme variance of being a 1BB winner.
    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,470
      Welcome back in the grind & GL with your challenge!
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      I have had a real busy weekend i haven't had much time to play and blog.

      @ Harrier i think i will use a step up at 20 buyins and step down at 15 buy ins, i have read about that tank roll bankroll, but like you said it defeats the object of my plan

      @ aurthurbently, Thanks for stopping by, you have played some serious hands, i have played about 350k over my lifetime, I dont think there is any need to have a 50br bankroll for micro stakes playing at NL2-NL10, if i lose my bankroll, i dont mind reloading $20 again.

      @ SvenBe, Thanks for your support.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Originally posted by arthurbentley
      Frozen Elf has a 1BB winrate at 25NL. A quick analysis of the variance for a 1BB winrate at 6-max tables in a poker variance calculator will quickly confirm that even 50 buyins is an aggressive bankroll. In fact, even with 150 buyins there is a 5% chance of ruin over a million hands played. I think Frozen Elf has done the right thing to move down. Her winrate, however commendable it is, is too low for her bankroll to cope with the extreme variance of being a 1BB winner.
      I believe we can expect Frozen to do a little better at these stakes than at NL25, and with the ability to re-deposit, I don't think that a BRM of >50 buy-ins is necessary. Twenty-something buy-ins should be fine, in my opinion.

      btw, he's a dude.
      Originally posted by FrozenElf
      i think i will use a step up at 20 buyins and step down at 15 buy ins, i have read about that tank roll bankroll, but like you said it defeats the object of my plan
      The way I'm most familiar with is to take "shots" of, for example, 5-10 BI's at the next higher limit once your bankroll is big enough to move up, meaning that you will keep playing at your new limit until your are 5-10 buy-ins in the red.

      In order to take bigger shots, you could consider moving up at 25 BI's and down at 15, or maybe up at 30 and down at 20. This would give you a better chance at staying at your new limit, but would also make moving down more painful. If you think that moving down after a 10 BI downswing would result in too many tilt problems, maybe you'll prefer to take 5 BI shots after all.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      Originally posted by Harrier88


      btw, he's a dude.
      :f_biggrin: , yeah i think ill jump up at 20 buy ins and down at 15, im not going to have much time to play over the next few weeks though, im going to spain in 2 weeks


      I Guess ill do a weekly review on the Monday and add the graph and my bank roll, ill add some interesting hands after each session from now on

      Weekly review


      +$14
      Starting bankroll $20
      Bankroll $34
      Hands played 15127

      How i have played

      The start of the week i was pretty solid, towards the end of the week i have seemed to be bluffing way too much, with double barrels and trebble barrels straight into some nut hands.

      I want to try and set a few goals, for this week.

      #1 - No bluffs after the flop, full stop
      #2 - Dont bluff vs a calling station or loose passive players, instead use medium strength hands for value bets
      #3 - Forget calling a postflop reraise, including a min reraise

      I think this is going to be tough to achieve this, i will keep these as my weekly goals until i completed them for 3 weeks on the trot.

    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      I just played a session was up about $5 then ended up -$0.60c after these 3 hands :f_biggrin:

      I thought he was pretty weak here and i thought i had some folding equity, this guy was like 10/24 and these type of guys seem to be calling stations, i will treat them like that for now, they have ended up on the river with some strange hands

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.29 (64.5 bb)
      BB: $1.80 (90 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.15 (107.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $0.92 (46 bb)
      MP1: $2 (100 bb)
      Hero (MP2): $5.15 (257.5 bb)
      MP3: $1.28 (64 bb)
      CO: $2.80 (140 bb)
      BTN: $2.51 (125.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with :Jc: :Ah:
      UTG+1 raises to $0.04, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.04, BTN raises to $0.10, SB calls $0.09, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, CO raises to $0.32, BTN folds, SB calls $0.22, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $0.22

      Flop: ($1.18) :7d: :8s: :8c: (3 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.57, SB folds, Hero raises to $4.83 and is all-in, CO calls $1.91 and is all-in

      Turn: ($6.14) :Ts: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
      River: ($6.14) :2h: (2 players, 2 are all-in)

      Results:
      $6.14 pot ($0.21 rake)
      Final Board: :7d: :8s: :8c: :Ts: :2h:
      SB mucked and lost (-$0.32 net)
      Hero showed :Jc: :Ah: and lost (-$2.80 net)
      CO showed :Ks: :Ac: and won $5.93 ($3.13 net)


      I thought he had AJ :f_biggrin:

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.60 (80 bb)
      BB: $2.21 (110.5 bb)
      Hero (UTG+1): $3.27 (163.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $2.28 (114 bb)
      MP1: $1.66 (83 bb)
      MP2: $1.41 (70.5 bb)
      MP3: $0.85 (42.5 bb)
      CO: $2.43 (121.5 bb)
      BTN: $1.97 (98.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with :6s: :6d:
      Hero raises to $0.06, 6 folds, SB calls $0.05, BB folds

      Flop: ($0.14) :4d: :2s: :Jh: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, SB calls $0.10

      Turn: ($0.34) :3h: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.26, SB calls $0.26

      River: ($0.86) :5h: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $2.85 and is all-in, SB calls $1.18 and is all-in

      Results:
      $3.22 pot ($0.11 rake)
      Final Board: :4d: :2s: :Jh: :3h: :5h:
      SB showed :Ah: :Qh: and won $3.11 ($1.51 net)
      Hero showed :6s: :6d: and lost (-$1.60 net)


      I got 2-1 so guess i have to call after raising the flop

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.97 (98.5 bb)
      BB: $1.47 (73.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.07 (103.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $5.06 (253 bb)
      MP1: $3.23 (161.5 bb)
      MP2: $5.41 (270.5 bb)
      MP3: $3.37 (168.5 bb)
      CO: $2.26 (113 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $4.18 (209 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with :Kd: :Js:
      5 folds, CO raises to $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, SB folds, BB calls $0.04

      Flop: ($0.19) :3d: :Ad: :2d: (3 players)
      BB bets $0.18, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.48, BB raises to $1.41 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.93

      Turn: ($3.01) :9s: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($3.01) :4h: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $3.01 pot ($0.11 rake)
      Final Board: :3d: :Ad: :2d: :9s: :4h:
      BB showed :6d: :7d: and won $2.90 ($1.43 net)
      CO mucked and lost (-$0.06 net)
      Hero showed :Kd: :Js: and lost (-$1.47 net)
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      It hasn't took long to start feeling like poker is rigged again, these are all in one session, I feel like i dont hit unless they have a monsters, every big pair is being beat in 3 bet pots left right and center

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $2.20 (110 bb)
      BB: $2 (100 bb)
      UTG+1: $5.46 (273 bb)
      UTG+2: $0.54 (27 bb)
      MP1: $3.69 (184.5 bb)
      MP2: $2.32 (116 bb)
      MP3: $2.02 (101 bb)
      Hero (CO): $2.88 (144 bb)
      BTN: $1.97 (98.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with :Kd: :Kh:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.04, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, BTN calls $0.12, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.39) :6d: :3d: 6: (3 players)
      UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.28, BTN raises to $0.56, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $2.76 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.29

      Turn: ($4.09) :Ah: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($4.09) :8h: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $4.09 pot ($0.14 rake)
      Final Board: :6d: :3d: 6: :Ah: :8h:
      UTG+2 mucked and lost (-$0.12 net)
      Hero showed :Kd: :Kh: and won $0.00 (-$1.97 net)
      BTN showed K: :Ad: and won $3.95 ($1.98 net)


      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $4.56 (228 bb)
      BB: $1.10 (55 bb)
      UTG+1: $1.82 (91 bb)
      UTG+2: $2.21 (110.5 bb)
      MP1: $2.10 (105 bb)
      MP2: $1.51 (75.5 bb)
      MP3: $2.24 (112 bb)
      CO: $2.09 (104.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $2.90 (145 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with :Jc: K:
      4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.06, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.18, SB calls $0.17, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.44) :Jh: 7: :9d: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($0.44) :4s: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.28, SB calls $0.28

      River: ($1) 5: (2 players)
      SB bets $0.96, Hero calls $0.96

      Results:
      $2.92 pot ($0.10 rake)
      Final Board: :Jh: 7: :9d: 4: 5:
      SB showed 8: 9: and won $2.82 ($1.40 net)
      Hero mucked :Jc: K: and lost (-$1.42 net)



      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $0.98 (49 bb)
      BB: $3.24 (162 bb)
      Hero (UTG+1): $2.72 (136 bb)
      UTG+2: $5.31 (265.5 bb)
      MP1: $2.01 (100.5 bb)
      MP2: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
      MP3: $2 (100 bb)
      CO: $3.46 (173 bb)
      BTN: $3.65 (182.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with :Kc: :Qc:
      Hero raises to $0.06, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.06, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB folds

      Flop: ($0.26) :6c: :6d: :6h: (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.18, MP1 folds, BTN calls $0.18, SB folds

      Turn: ($0.62) :9c: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.40, BTN calls $0.40

      River: ($1.42) :Kh: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.98, BTN raises to $3.01 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.10 and is all-in

      Results:
      $5.58 pot ($0.20 rake)
      Final Board: :6c: :6d: :6h: :9c: :Kh:
      Hero showed :Kc: :Qc: and lost (-$2.72 net)
      BTN showed 8: 6: and won $5.38 ($2.66 net)


      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $2.22 (111 bb)
      BB: $3.29 (164.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $2 (100 bb)
      UTG+2: $7.97 (398.5 bb)
      MP1: $1 (50 bb)
      MP2: $2.71 (135.5 bb)
      MP3: $2 (100 bb)
      CO: $2.14 (107 bb)
      BTN: $1.76 (88 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with :Ac: A:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.06, 4 folds, BTN calls $0.06, Hero raises to $0.24, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $0.18, BTN folds

      Flop: ($0.56) :7c: :Td: :9c: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.42, UTG+2 calls $0.42

      Turn: ($1.40) :Jh: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.56 and is all-in, UTG+2 calls $1.56

      River: ($4.52) :Qc: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $4.52 pot ($0.16 rake)
      Final Board: :7c: :Td: :9c: :Jh: :Qc:
      Hero showed :Ac: A: and lost (-$2.22 net)
      UTG+2 showed :8d: :8h: and won $4.36 ($2.14 net)


      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $2.59 (129.5 bb)
      BB: $1.61 (80.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.14 (107 bb)
      UTG+2: $3.51 (175.5 bb)
      Hero (MP1): $2.11 (105.5 bb)
      MP2: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
      MP3: $1.58 (79 bb)
      CO: $1.97 (98.5 bb)
      BTN: $1.80 (90 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q: :Qc:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.07, Hero raises to $0.22, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.22, 3 folds

      Flop: ($0.54) :9h: :2h: :3h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.42, BTN calls $0.42

      Turn: ($1.38) :7d: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.47 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.16

      River: ($3.70) :9d: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $3.70 pot ($0.13 rake)
      Final Board: :9h: :2h: :3h: :7d: :9d:
      Hero showed Q: :Qc: and lost (-$1.80 net)
      BTN showed :7h: :7c: and won $3.57 ($1.77 net)


      This hand may be a bad play what ever, but i feel like the only time i hit TPTK with these types of hands is when i'm beat, or no one has anything

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $3.93 (196.5 bb)
      BB: $2.24 (112 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $1.53 (76.5 bb)
      MP1: $2 (100 bb)
      MP2: $2 (100 bb)
      MP3: $2.59 (129.5 bb)
      CO: $2 (100 bb)
      BTN: $2.28 (114 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with :Jh: :Ad:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.08, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.07, BB folds

      Flop: ($0.18) :Th: :3s: :Jd: (2 players)
      Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, UTG+2 calls $0.32

      Turn: ($1.14) :3d: (2 players)
      Hero bets $3.37 and is all-in, UTG+2 calls $0.97

      River: ($3.08) :7h: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $3.08 pot ($0.11 rake)
      Final Board: :Th: :3s: :Jd: :3d: :7h:
      Hero showed :Jh: :Ad: and lost (-$1.53 net)
      UTG+2 showed :Qc: :Qh: and won $2.97 ($1.44 net)


      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.91 (95.5 bb)
      Hero (BB): $2.51 (125.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.26 (113 bb)
      UTG+2: $2.75 (137.5 bb)
      MP1: $2 (100 bb)
      MP2: $5.53 (276.5 bb)
      MP3: $1.79 (89.5 bb)
      CO: $5.42 (271 bb)
      BTN: $2.06 (103 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :4d: :4c:
      3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.04, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.04, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02

      Flop: ($0.13) 5: 4: :2s: (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.36, MP2 folds, CO calls $0.26

      Turn: ($0.85) :2h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55

      River: ($1.95) :6h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.56 and is all-in, CO calls $1.56

      Results:
      $5.07 pot ($0.18 rake)
      Final Board: 5: 4: :2s: :2h: :6h:
      Hero showed :4d: :4c: and lost (-$2.51 net)
      CO showed :2d: :2c: and won $4.89 ($2.38 net)


      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $2.04 (102 bb)
      Hero (BB): $2.07 (103.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $3.11 (155.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
      MP1: $2.70 (135 bb)
      MP2: $2.63 (131.5 bb)
      MP3: $1.74 (87 bb)
      CO: $1.92 (96 bb)
      BTN: $2.13 (106.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :Ad: A:
      2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.08, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.26, MP1 calls $0.18

      Flop: ($0.53) :Qc: 6: 9: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.38, Hero raises to $1.81, MP1 calls $1.43

      Turn: ($4.15) :7d: (2 players)
      River: ($4.15) :3s: (2 players)

      Results:
      $4.15 pot ($0.15 rake)
      Final Board: :Qc: 6: 9: :7d: :3s:
      Hero showed :Ad: A: and lost (-$2.07 net)
      MP1 showed :6h: :6d: and won $4 ($1.93 net)


      Im ready for quitting the game, i'm playing along exploiting players stealing pots, its like the game throws a spanner in and say nope your up too many stacks here im taking 3 away from you, and gives me some hands like above, i have nbot had a double up at showdown in ages
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,617
      Originally posted by FrozenElf
      It hasn't took long to start feeling like poker is rigged again, these are all in one session, I feel like i dont hit unless they have a monsters, every big pair is being beat in 3 bet pots left right and center

      <snipped>

      Im ready for quitting the game, i'm playing along exploiting players stealing pots, its like the game throws a spanner in and say nope your up too many stacks here im taking 3 away from you, and gives me some hands like above, i have nbot had a double up at showdown in ages
      Hi FrozenElf,
      It sounds like you're ready for a break!
      I highly recommend the book "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler.
      There is a lot of material in the "Learning to Win" forum that covers the same topic, but his book is very much worth the cost.

      I recommend getting the electronic version -- much cheaper and you can read it on your computer/phone/tablet etc.

      I went through this book beginning in Nov 2012 -- was it really 5 years ago?
      I found multiple mental leaks in my game and have more-or-less fixed 'em.

      The book is not something you can read and put away. It is a process. Just as you do a hand review at the end of a game, you also do a "mental game review" where you look at how you reacted.

      In the book he describes several forms of tilt, and how to counteract them.

      All the best,
      VS
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by FrozenElf
      It hasn't took long to start feeling like poker is rigged again, these are all in one session, I feel like i dont hit unless they have a monsters, every big pair is being beat in 3 bet pots left right and center

      <snipped>

      Im ready for quitting the game, i'm playing along exploiting players stealing pots, its like the game throws a spanner in and say nope your up too many stacks here im taking 3 away from you, and gives me some hands like above, i have nbot had a double up at showdown in ages
      Hi FrozenElf,
      It sounds like you're ready for a break!
      I highly recommend the book "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler.
      There is a lot of material in the "Learning to Win" forum that covers the same topic, but his book is very much worth the cost.

      I recommend getting the electronic version -- much cheaper and you can read it on your computer/phone/tablet etc.

      I went through this book beginning in Nov 2012 -- was it really 5 years ago?
      I found multiple mental leaks in my game and have more-or-less fixed 'em.

      The book is not something you can read and put away. It is a process. Just as you do a hand review at the end of a game, you also do a "mental game review" where you look at how you reacted.

      In the book he describes several forms of tilt, and how to counteract them.

      All the best,
      VS
      Thanks for your support, I have been studying that book for some time now here is a picture of it, im about to order a new one :f_biggrin:



      It is true when you hear "Poker is not a game of cards" I am going to start playing more passive with TPTK and over pair type hands to avoid losing stacks like this

      I will check out the learning to win forum.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Hey Frozen,

      Looks like this was quite a brutal session, but these can happen at NL2 just as easily as at higher limits. I'm not sure if playing more passively is the solution, especially since most of the hands above were actually well played as far as I can tell, except for that one hand were you already acknowledged that you could have played it better.

      One advantage of cash games is that you are able to leave at any point, unlike in tournaments, so maybe you should consider taking a "tilt break" when those feelings that poker is rigged show up again. There's really not much point in trying to force things.

      Let's get back to the big picture again, how does your standard session look like? How many tables do you play, and how long do your sessions typically last (based on time or hands)? Do you have any indicators about how much you won or lost in your HUD or anywhere else?

      Also, do you do any other forms of luck-based gaming? I personally like to explore other types of gambling as well, and I believe it actually helps me put those kind of things in perspective, since every game has their own unique element of luck. I'm not necessarily implying that picking up other games would help you in the same way, but I'd be interested to know if you have any experience with other games as well.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      Originally posted by Harrier88
      Hey Frozen,

      Looks like this was quite a brutal session, but these can happen at NL2 just as easily as at higher limits. I'm not sure if playing more passively is the solution, especially since most of the hands above were actually well played as far as I can tell, except for that one hand were you already acknowledged that you could have played it better.

      One advantage of cash games is that you are able to leave at any point, unlike in tournaments, so maybe you should consider taking a "tilt break" when those feelings that poker is rigged show up again. There's really not much point in trying to force things.

      Let's get back to the big picture again, how does your standard session look like? How many tables do you play, and how long do your sessions typically last (based on time or hands)? Do you have any indicators about how much you won or lost in your HUD or anywhere else?

      Also, do you do any other forms of luck-based gaming? I personally like to explore other types of gambling as well, and I believe it actually helps me put those kind of things in perspective, since every game has their own unique element of luck. I'm not necessarily implying that picking up other games would help you in the same way, but I'd be interested to know if you have any experience with other games as well.
      I think what you said in bold where i edited, is probably a very good idea, i sort of have been doing this recently, I think when them feelings show up, its a sign i've lost control and need a break.

      I usually play 4 zoom tables, I wouldnt know how to answer what a standard session looks like :f_biggrin: , sessions can last from anything from 20 mins to 2-3 hours depending on how much time i have, i try not to look at the results during a session.

      I have never really played any form of other gambling games, i dont realy gamble if im honest.

      Sorry for the late reply i have been losing motivation to play recently with my feelings about the game is rigged, i wonder if i could pay for a 15 minuted phone call with Jarred, so he can point me in the right direction

      Here was a hand i decided to play passively, if i bet he would of probably folded the flop,

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $3.32 (166 bb)
      BB: $2 (100 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.22 (111 bb)
      UTG+2: $3.40 (170 bb)
      Hero (MP1): $4.07 (203.5 bb)
      MP2: $2.28 (114 bb)
      MP3: $9.48 (474 bb)
      CO: $2 (100 bb)
      BTN: $2.73 (136.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with :Kh: :As:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.21, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.54, MP3 calls $0.33

      Flop: ($1.11) :Ad: :4d: :8c: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

      Turn: ($2.71) :6c: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.15, Hero calls $1.15

      River: ($5.01) :9s: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 checks

      Results:
      $5.01 pot ($0.18 rake)
      Final Board: :Ad: :4d: :8c: :6c: :9s:
      Hero showed :Kh: :As: and won $4.83 ($2.34 net)
      MP3 mucked :Qs: :Qh: and lost (-$2.49 net)

    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 808
      My mental pattern seems to emerge about 15 mins after playing recently, i am still in more control of my play then 6 months ago where i would insane monkey tile 7-8 stacks.

      Why do i feel so cursed, like the game is out to get me.... This is so tough to drop this kind of thinking

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.98 (99 bb)
      BB: $2 (100 bb)
      UTG+1: $4.09 (204.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $1.90 (95 bb)
      Hero (MP1): $2.48 (124 bb)
      MP2: $2.62 (131 bb)
      MP3: $2.67 (133.5 bb)
      CO: $0.37 (18.5 bb)
      BTN: $3.70 (185 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with :Ac: :As:
      UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.24, 6 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.48, Hero raises to $2.48, UTG+2 calls $1.42 and is all-in

      Flop: ($3.83) :Ks: :2c: :3d: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      Turn: ($3.83) :Qh: (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($3.83) :5c: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $3.83 pot ($0.13 rake)
      Final Board: :Ks: :2c: :3d: :Qh: :5c:
      UTG+2 showed :Kc: :Kh: and won $3.70 ($1.80 net)
      Hero showed :Ac: :As: and lost (-$1.90 net)


      Analysis

      This guys stats were 7/30 70 sample, he was a station, why did i convince myself that he had AQ AJ

      Calling stations call call call, and only re raise with the nuts, this is mostly a min re raise because they dont want to scare anybody away, this is also true when they have AA preflop

      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $2.39 (119.5 bb)
      BB: $1.03 (51.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $2.11 (105.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $8.45 (422.5 bb)
      MP1: $2.14 (107 bb)
      MP2: $0.94 (47 bb)
      Hero (MP3): $2.07 (103.5 bb)
      CO: $1.92 (96 bb)
      BTN: $8.48 (424 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with :Kd: :As:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, CO folds, BTN calls $0.06, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.15) :Ad: :2h: :4h: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.09, BTN raises to $0.18, Hero raises to $0.43, BTN calls $0.25

      Turn: ($1.01) :Jd: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.65, BTN calls $0.65

      River: ($2.31) :3s: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.93, BTN calls $0.93

      Results:
      $4.17 pot ($0.15 rake)
      Final Board: :Ad: :2h: :4h: :Jd: :3s:
      Hero showed :Kd: :As: and lost (-$2.07 net)
      BTN showed :Ah: :2d: and won $4.02 ($1.95 net)
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      You usually play four Zoom tables? Then I'm glad we talked about it, because this is a quite enormous amount of tables. I've done it myself a couple of times in the past, and I remember that it could be quite stressful. And that was around 2013-14, when rakeback at Stars actually meant something.

      I've been told that one Zoom table is more or less comparable to four standard tables. Not sure how accurate this is, but you can tell that things can add up fast. I recommend dropping down to two Zoom tables, or maybe consider switching to regular tables, preferably with table selection. To be honest, I've never really bothered that much with table selection myself, but I've been advised by micro stakes coaches around here that it really makes a difference.

      Also, I personally preferred to base the length of my sessions on the amount of hands played, instead of time. If I remember correctly, a typical session lasted 500 hands for two Zoom tables, or 1k hands for the big "four table grinds" I mentioned. I'm not sure if it has any benefits over playing based on time or anything else, but at least it helped me take regular breaks before my game started to suffer due to fatigue etc.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Haven't heard from you in a while, Frozen. How are things going? Are you still playing?

      If you ever want to have a private chat, you know how to reach me. I should be available in the late afternoon/early evening on most days.