[NL2-NL10] SSS Trash hand all-in clarification

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Say you have A,Ko. You raise preflop, according to the SHC, and get called by one opponent.

      The flop comes and you have a trash hand. However, you are first to act, and because you have one opponent, you make a continuation bet of 2/3 of the pot.

      Now, suppose villain calls again. The guide says you give up the hand at this point.

      Fine, but the guide also says that if "you raised pre-flop and only have less than half of the pot left, you push all-in in any case, no matter what your opponents do."

      So my question is: does this apply only before you've made your continuation bet, but not afterwards? I.e. if making your continuation bet and having that bet called by villain means that now you only have less than half the pot left, do you go all-in if villain raises after the turn, or do you fold? Here is an example of what I mean:


      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)
      MP3:
      $1.95
      UTG+1:
      $4.16
      SB:
      $2.74
      CO:
      $2.21
      UTG+2:
      $10.31
      Hero:
      $1.70
      BU:
      $9.52
      MP1:
      $1.70
      BB:
      $2
      MP2:
      $3.01

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A:heart: , K:spade:
      Hero raises to $0.40, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 folds.

      Flop: ($0.95) 3:diamond: , 4:spade: , 5:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.66, MP2 calls $0.66.

      Turn: ($2.27) 5:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 bets $1.08, Hero raises to $0.64 (All-In).

      River: ($3.99) 4:heart:


      Final Pot: $3.99

      Thanks in advance...
  • 14 replies
    • dandycal
      dandycal
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2008 Posts: 1,711
      Hi Tim,

      Honestly I think this article is a little confusing at times, I myself already made a lot of questions about it.

      If we take their meaning here strictly:
      "If you raised pre-flop and at the start of the next betting round you already have less than half of the pot left..."

      we must understand that the "next" betting round after the "pre-flop" situation is the flop.

      On the turn we are left with very little chance of improving, and after c-betting a trash hand on flop we would nearly always be pot-commited on the turn, so I guess that cannot really be an option. After c-betting flop with a trash hand we ought to fold to any resistance and c/f if villain calls again and we still have trash on turn. We'll be behind so often that it is worth saving those BBs we have left.

      You might want to take a look at this post:
      http://
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      your cbet was more than half of your stack so push flop directly and the hand is over.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Well, it interests me that you were confused by the article too and, having searched previous articles, it seems we're not alone.

      So, could we have a ruling please?

      Also, can I humbly suggest the offending article (http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/824/6/ ) is amended going forward, since I don't think it can be sensible to have this much confusion over what is a fairly frequent occurence in SSS.

      The issue is this:

      If I am required to make a conti-bet and I know that, if my opponent calls the bet, the pot will thereby have grown so much that "at the start of the next betting round" my stack will be less than half the pot which will mean I am required to push all-in, should I simply push all-in on the flop instead?

      As dandycal has pointed out, a lot of the confusion stems from the phrase "...at the start of the next betting round...". If this means the betting round following Hero's flop contibet and villain's call, i.e. the Turn, then in very many cases Hero's stack size will be less than half the pot but his hand is still trash so it seems illogical that he should be going all-in at this point.

      Thanks in advance
    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      Hey tim,

      it's good you brought this up. I actually asked ingol the exact same question during the SSS coaching this past friday. First thing here is, your c-bet would be more than half your stack, so you would push all in. Yes, I confirmed with ingol that indeed it would be a normal occurrence in SSS to have to all in with trash on cbet.

      but as played...

      as for my take on the article, i think it says that we are to give up the hand once villain has called our cbet. this makes sense, since, villain is unlikely to fold turn if u called flop, unless there are scare cards out there. and as dandycal said, if we still have trash, it's unlikely to improve by river.
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      If you're not all-in on the flop after the c-bet, you give up the hand(trash hand), no matter what's your stack unless your hand improves on any later street.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      burek2000,

      Thank you very much. That could not be clearer!

      Thanks everyone else for their posts as well. I think I know what's going on now. I still think the article could do with a re-work, though. ;)

      Cheers,

      Tim
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hi Tim64,

      English articles are in revision and to be upgraded, I looked into my Dutch articles which are already up-to-date with the German articles and thus the new and simplified SSS and I quote this:

      If Villain calls your c-bet then:

      - You go All-in on the Turn whenever you have Top-Pair, an overpair or better, an OESD draw (8outs) or a flushdraw (9 outs).
      - You check/fold whenever your hand doesn't improve from the Flop to the Turn.

      - You go all-in whenever the Pot is twice as much as your stack at the start of the betting round (The Turn!).
      To clarifiy the last sentence with you go all-in no matter what:
      On the Turn you are still unimproved:
      Pot = $2
      Your stack = $1 so go all-in on the Turn

      Pot= $2
      Your stack = $0.6 , same as above, shove!

      Pot=$3
      Your stack= $1.8, only second barrel with 8 outs and up, I personally go with 10 outs but 8 is fine as well.

      As played Tim, I would either Shove the Flop immediately for 10 outs and you are actually betting 1/2~ of your stack. If you did not do that, you MUST shove the Turn.

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      ...huh, nevertheless I believe my explanation was correct for existing SSS english community articles.

      But, to be honest, I like old articles better. ^^
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Ok, thanks all. The new rule seems a bit easier to follow...

      However, I still think that in most cases, you will have to break rule no.2 if you must follow rule no. 3.

      For example: If you start pre flop with 20BB (standard) and raise 4BB and villain calls 4BB pre-flop, then on the flop the pot is 8.5BB and your stack is now 16BB.

      A contibet of 6BB leaves you with 10BB and, assuming villain calls contibet, the pot now stands at 20.5BB (8.5 + 12) which is of course more than half your remaining stack. And that means that even if your hand hasn't improved (rule 2 - says: "You check/fold whenever your hand doesn't improve from the Flop to the Turn.") you have to go all in because of rule 3 "You go all-in whenever the Pot is twice as much as your stack at the start of the betting round")

      In fact, I think that, at the start of the the betting round following the Turn card, your stack will be less than 1/2 the pot in the great majority of cases. And I think it's the fact that beginner short stackers will often find themselves having to try to follow 2 different rules - which seem to contradict each other - that is the cause of much confusion. I might be the only one who finds this difficult, and it's probably time for me to shut up about this now :rolleyes: , but I think that when the English articles are finalised this point should be checked. If I'm right about how often this happens, maybe the article could say someting like: "Often you will need to go all-in on the Turn even though your hand has not improved" (Assuming that is in fact what PS is advising).

      Sorry for being so boring about this. ;)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      I don't jam 10bb (50%) of your stack on the Turn with nothing, air, curve ball, trash...!

      Just stick to ''If I got something, I go all-in on the Turn otherwise I check/fold'' rule. And now I see what this is coming from:
      You raised pre-flop and only have less than half of the pot left:

      * You push all-in in any case, no matter what your opponents do.
      Okay so here we are talking about post-flop BUT this 'Rule' is changed to a recommendation by shoving preflop instead.

      An example:
      You: 17bb

      Hero is BTN A:cJ
      UTG+1 limps, MP1 limps, Mp2 limps, fold, fold, Hero ?

      1) You can raise to 4+3bb = 7bb and shove any flop heads-up or check/fold whenever you don't hit Toppair multiway
      or
      2) Shove directly since you give them 3 free cards because you have to go all-in anyways on the Flop.

      I agree that this confuses a lot of people but with some thinking about what will going to happen next, one can see that pushing pre-flop gives you the most value for your cards :)

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hi Gerv,

      Okay. At last, I think I understand where the confusion comes from in the article. Here is the text from the article:

      ____________________

      " You raised pre-flop and only have one opponent:

      · On the flop you bet 2/3 of the pot. Should this be more than half of your stack, you push all-in and bet all your money.
      · If your opponent already made a bet, raises or calls your bet, you give up the hand.

      You did not raise pre-flop or you have more than one opponent:

      · You check and fold as soon as anybody else bets.

      You raised pre-flop and only have less than half of the pot left:

      · You push all-in in any case, no matter what your opponents do. "

      ____________________

      The problem is that the article doesn't make 100% clear that the final statement only applies when you have more than one opponent. Although it uses the word "opponents", it is possible to interpret that statement as being a rule which you have to follow if you have one opponent or more.

      Because the three situations are in bold text, it looks like they are separate situations and this causes the confusion. Because actually the last rule is only intended to apply when you have more than one opponent (if I understand your example correctly). Maybe it would be clearer if it were set out as follows: (Words added underlined)

      ____________________

      "You raised pre-flop and you have only one opponent on the flop:

      · On the flop you bet 2/3 of the pot. Should this be more than half of your stack, you push all-in and bet all your money.
      · If your opponent already made a bet, raises or calls your bet, you give up the hand.

      You did not raise pre-flop or you have more than one opponent:

      · You check and fold as soon as anybody else bets.

      You raised pre-flop, you have more than one opponent, and you only have less than half of the pot left:

      · You push all-in in any case, no matter what your opponents do."

      ______________________

      Phew! I think I got there in the end. Sorry this was so long a thread, but I think I understand it now. I think it shows how a very small difference in the wording can change the meaning a lot. Anyway, thanks again. :tongue:
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      See above.
    • dandycal
      dandycal
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2008 Posts: 1,711
      Hey Tim,

      I don't really think the 3rd topic only applies to multi-way pots. It seems to me that it should actually be the opposite, as if you have more than one opponent, the probability that someone will beat you is greater. I have been advised to only consider myself pot-commited (having to push becuase I have less than 1/2 pot left) when I'm heads-up.

      And yes, this is another slight problem with the edition of the article.

      But I think this quote from the new article can summarize it for us (from Gerv's post):
      "If Villain calls your c-bet then:

      - You go All-in on the Turn whenever you have Top-Pair, an overpair or better, an OESD draw (8outs) or a flushdraw (9 outs).
      - You check/fold whenever your hand doesn't improve from the Flop to the Turn.

      - You go all-in whenever the Pot is twice as much as your stack at the start of the betting round (The Turn!)."

      But regarding the last statement, as Gerv suggested:
      Originally posted by Gerv
      I don't jam 10bb (50%) of your stack on the Turn with nothing, air, curve ball, trash...!

      Just stick to ''If I got something, I go all-in on the Turn otherwise I check/fold'' rule.
      I understand we should use our own discretion in such cases, rather than following the rule blindly. As he said, if you have absolutely nothing on the turn, don't bother to invest your remaining stack even if it is a little less than 1/2 pot.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Hmmm. The plot thickens... :( (Just when I thought I was getting there!)

      I suppose I can see what you're saying but it really does surprise that this is intended to be a matter of discretion for a beginner SSS player.

      It surprises me because, generally, SSS is touted as a set of clear rules that you follow rather than recommendations you just give consideration to. If they're only recommendations, then what's to stop someone saying "well, I know i'm in early position with pocket tens, but everybody is playing very tight on this table so I'll use my discretion and raise."?

      That said, I personally do consider myself capable of using my discretion, so if that is the idea for playing trash hands, fair enough. It would still help, in my view, if the article made that clear.

      All that remains is for Gerv or PS to confirm whether, in the context of trash hands (ie. hands that have not improved from Flop to Turn), the third rule in the old article applies to multiway and heads up; or only multiway; or only heads up.

      Thanks so much for everyone's patience. I've even managed to bore myself...